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There Have Probably Been Aliens

nytimes.com

81–90 of 163 posts

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#81
post #75
post #9

"In other words, given what we now know about the number and orbital positions of the galaxy’s planets, the degree of pessimism required to doubt the existence, at some point in time, of an advanced extraterrestrial civilization borders on the irrational." This is terribly silly. It reminds me of the Onion talks: "Step 1: Devise an idea to create a car that runs on compost. Step 2: Create the car. We’ve already compl…

> Specifically, the odds of abiogenesis are ~1/2^n, where n is the complexity in bits of the smallest self-replicator. n is bounded below by ~100 or so (or it would have happened in a lab somewhere), and is bounded above by ~1 million (the smallest existing bacteria), so we know it's somewhere in there. If the odds of abiogenesis are 1/2^128, and if that is the source of life, then we're the only life in the Universe…

OP's argument here is slightly wrong I think, as it does not take into account the amount of time: Abiogenesis probably hasn't happened in a lab yet because the corresponding experiments have been running for a couple of years or decades at most, whereas nature's "experiments" have been continuously running at planetary scale for billions of years. If we count the number of attempts to invent life in the sense of putting together some anorganic and organic chemicals, supplying some energy and waiting for e.g. one year, then Nature has probably run 10^18 times more experiments than we have (10^9 years of experiments, each one running on a 1 m² surface [not taking into account depth]). And, fossil evidence points to life having started 4.1 billion years ago, or roughly 500 million years after the formation of the planet, which is a rather short amount of time (it's very likely that first lifeforms existed even earlier than that). So my naive guess would be that n < 100, though without further evidence (e.g. finding life on other planets) this is hardly more than a belief.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#82
post #68
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First on earth out of billions of species That's par for the course. That's how evolution works. And we're also gonna be the last on earth (we or our evolved successors), because we have the evolutionary upper hand. But that doesn't say much for other planets. We expect them too to have billions of species and a race to produce an intelligent being too.

Why compare stuff happening elsewhere that you don't know about (other planets) when you can compare stuff that you know about (here on earth?). My point is that intelligent life as defined above seems not to be a certain development of evolution. I showcased the evidence for that. You seem to think that it is, but you didn't argue why - other than "it happens so it will for sure on other planets as well". There are…

If we better understand how other species on Earth communicate, dolphins, elephants, other primates, and they show interest in our technology, and finally they build their own radios suitable for their own use, will that be enough to show you there is greater probability for intelligent life?

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#83
post #3

Title is mild clickbait. There's no evidence for the claim, just a persuasive argument that it's probably true. Interesting nonetheless.

it's not mild clickbait. it's the definition of click bait. it states a very controversial conclusion, as if the argument is finally settled, while the body has little new information and fudges around with statistic that "it's likely probable that there is or once was another species".

Since this is published in a newspaper, the term that is generally used is "headline," not "click bait."

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#84
post #3

Title is mild clickbait. There's no evidence for the claim, just a persuasive argument that it's probably true. Interesting nonetheless.

it's not mild clickbait. it's the definition of click bait. it states a very controversial conclusion, as if the argument is finally settled, while the body has little new information and fudges around with statistic that "it's likely probable that there is or once was another species".

Since this is published in a newspaper, the terms that are generally used are "headline" or "title," not "click bait."

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#86
post #75
post #9

"In other words, given what we now know about the number and orbital positions of the galaxy’s planets, the degree of pessimism required to doubt the existence, at some point in time, of an advanced extraterrestrial civilization borders on the irrational." This is terribly silly. It reminds me of the Onion talks: "Step 1: Devise an idea to create a car that runs on compost. Step 2: Create the car. We’ve already compl…

> Specifically, the odds of abiogenesis are ~1/2^n, where n is the complexity in bits of the smallest self-replicator. n is bounded below by ~100 or so (or it would have happened in a lab somewhere), and is bounded above by ~1 million (the smallest existing bacteria), so we know it's somewhere in there. If the odds of abiogenesis are 1/2^128, and if that is the source of life, then we're the only life in the Universe…

In the Observable Universe

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#87
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you can draw the conclusion that since there is one intelligent (as defined above) species, out of many on earth, that intelligence is unlikely to develop. The main issue I see is that there were other species that were close to as intelligent us, but we out competed them and they went extinct. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a sort of "first one wins" effect where the first species to reach a certa…

Even if we outcompeted the Neanderthals (or other very intelligent species), they were still very close to us in the tree of life (they were cousins). For a trait to be a high probability outcome of evolution it needs to happen independently in many different species - take binocular sight for instance which happens in all kinds of very far related species. Even if our close relatives had similar intelligence and we…

Radio spreads very poorly in sea water.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#88
post #42

I enjoy these quasi statistical arguments. Can anyone remind me what is the probability that God exists, or that we live in a computer simulation?

Did god invent humans or was it the other way round?

Human did invent the things they believe in. It doesn't matter if the concept of "deity" has some truth or not.

Religions have a traceable history, which shows they were entirely man made. No need to prove or disprove that this or that person talked to "angels" since angels don't exist to begin with.Therefore there is no truthful prophet.

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#89

There have been aliens -- and they don't care about us. To assume that a collection of beings which have obtained the ability to travel amongst the stars would focus their attention on a single species on a single planet is fundamentally selfish. What resources does our earth contain that are not (more easily) obtainable elsewhere? If Drake's equation "holds", then what novelty do _we_ provide?

Or, perhaps, they care enough to quarantine our corner of the universe. We are extremely destructive to ourselves, our co-inhabitants and our world. A.C. Clarke posited this as the probable reason we don't get visitors if they do exist & already have the means to travel the vast distances of space.

Excellent 50 minute forum with 3 of the greatest brains of the 20th century.

God, The Universe And Everything Else: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKQQAv5svkk

Re: There Have Probably Been Aliens

#90

There have been aliens -- and they don't care about us. To assume that a collection of beings which have obtained the ability to travel amongst the stars would focus their attention on a single species on a single planet is fundamentally selfish. What resources does our earth contain that are not (more easily) obtainable elsewhere? If Drake's equation "holds", then what novelty do _we_ provide?

There are many reasons alien races would interact with primitives. Morality - they might be utilitarian and desire to relieve the suffering of other sentient beings. Or force their weird alien morals onto them. Competition - we might not be a threat now, but given a sufficiently long time, we could evolve into one. If they really don't care about us, it would cost them very little to exterminate us early.

"There are many reasons alien races would interact with primitives."

hehe, you forgot humanity's favorites:

enslavement

resource plundering

empire building

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