The effects of living in a poor neighborhood • Hacker News Board

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#81

Post by venomsnake » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 6:15 AM UTC

ashwinaj wrote: post #41

Swizec wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why can't we have neighborhoods with multiple levels of housing options encouraging people with mixed incomes to be around each other Because americans have spent the last 60+ years working to "solve" that problem. May I present to you, the White Flight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight

Yes, I'm aware of white flight. It's 2016 and the claim is that America has supposedly moved on, but it surely doesn't look like it. Or no one wants to talk about it since it's embarrassing.

And now you have the white influx that is once again displacing the poor ... and leading to homogeneous areas in the cities cores.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#82

Post by imtringued » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 6:37 AM UTC

grahamburger wrote: post #60

dragonwriter wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Section 8 vouchers are a means-tested benefit program where the net benefit decreases with outside income, and, as such, create a disincentive (especially since people qualified for them also, nearly invariably, are on other means-tested benefit programs whose benefits also decline with additional income -- sometimes, in aggregate, leading to a greater than 1:1 decline in benefits compared to increased income) to pro…

This is the thing I really don't get about UBI. It really, really doesn't remove means testing. Your tax burden is still means based, and that determines whether your ubi is net positive or net negative. So again, your net benefit decreases with increased outside income, because you're paying more in taxes.

With any kind of percentage based tax you're paying more taxes with more income. That's by design and it would still apply if we didn't have any kind of welfare system.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#83

Post by b1449835 » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 6:40 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #17

PoorBloke123 wrote: post #7

This article is the biggest bunch of rubbish that I have read in months. It takes bias to whole new levels. People are starting to realize that "studies" are almost always biased in the first place and should not be trusted. Secondly, look at some of the examples used: A comparison is made between: > 25% of black kids had parents who grew up in the bottom two levels* and moved up at least one. and > 59% of white kids…

We've banned this account. Single-purpose accounts are not allowed on HN, especially when their single purpose is to post political rants. If you want to participate on HN in good faith, respecting the rules about civil, substantive discourse, you're welcome to email us at hn@ycombinator.com.

What a lovely way to say "I don't like this person"

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#84

Post by venomsnake » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 6:41 AM UTC

cb18 wrote: post #51

Doesn't all this seem somewhat backward. There's this victimization mentality that acts like poverty is this absolute thing that is meted out like a cursed rock, outside the control and agency of whom it's been placed upon. Why don't we have more discussion about the causes that lead to the effect of poverty. It's really more productive to see poverty as being an effect, or outcome of other causes or actions. Change…

I think you misunderstood ... it is not the murder per se. But that murders happen to concentrate in the worst of the worst parts of town. Which if there is correlation with kids outcomes as the article states - means that these kids live in the worst poverty of all.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#85

Post by dllthomas » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 6:43 AM UTC

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #70

grahamburger wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the thing I really don't get about UBI. It really, really doesn't remove means testing. Your tax burden is still means based, and that determines whether your ubi is net positive or net negative. So again, your net benefit decreases with increased outside income, because you're paying more in taxes.

It's not means testing that's the problem. The problem is that a linear combination of benefit programs with a below-unity benefit-to-income slope has an above-unity slope, which means that making an additional dollar disqualifies you from more money than the dollar gives you. The benefit programs as a whole aren't designed holistically to avoid this (and other) traps, so any welfare overhaul that consolidates multip…

And even before unity-in-dollars, it can be way below unity-in-utility for opportunities available.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#86

Post by dllthomas » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 6:44 AM UTC

grahamburger wrote: post #60

dragonwriter wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Section 8 vouchers are a means-tested benefit program where the net benefit decreases with outside income, and, as such, create a disincentive (especially since people qualified for them also, nearly invariably, are on other means-tested benefit programs whose benefits also decline with additional income -- sometimes, in aggregate, leading to a greater than 1:1 decline in benefits compared to increased income) to pro…

This is the thing I really don't get about UBI. It really, really doesn't remove means testing. Your tax burden is still means based, and that determines whether your ubi is net positive or net negative. So again, your net benefit decreases with increased outside income, because you're paying more in taxes.

If you're paying for the BI with a tax on income, then yes there is effectively still a phase out. But it's the slowest possible phase out.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#87

Post by WalterBright » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 7:16 AM UTC

Snargorf wrote: post #74

btilly wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It only got a lot more equal because WW1, the Depression, and WW2 combined destroyed most of the stuff the rich people had. Don't forget 92% marginal tax rates on income over $1 million/year. That was slashed to 72% under JFK. But regional inequality only took took off after it was slashed to 50% then to 28% by Reagan. Today the rich have lower tax rates than average Americans.

Those rates were basically fiction. All they led to (and the only reason they could be levied) was a huge system of fake on-paper money-losing schemes. People would arrange all sorts of business ventures and other schemes to appear to be losing money, and thus reduce their taxes. The actual tax receipts as a percentage of income were very close to what they are today.

Reagan's tax deal with Congress was eliminate the tax shelters in exchange for lowing the top rate. The former has been forgotten.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#88

Post by kentrado » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 7:21 AM UTC

ausjke wrote: post #76

Why blacks are not doing well? Because they were from Africa, but new immigrants from Africa came to US earn a pretty decent life quickly than those have been here centuries ago. Because they're minority, but other minorities such as the Jews and Asians are working hard and earning a decent life here. Because of less chance to get education, but you have affirmative action that you can get into decent college at a hu…

I don't usually write responses and I don't have much time to write you a detailed explanation of history.

But are you aware that there are living black people who still remember segregation and Jim Crow? It wasn't that long ago.

The idea that just because recently you decided to treat niggers like human beings, they should instantly have the same level as people who were never treated as subhuman in this US of A, is simply unadulterated pure stupidity.

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#89

Post by randombacon2 » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 7:22 AM UTC

ausjke wrote: post #76

Why blacks are not doing well? Because they were from Africa, but new immigrants from Africa came to US earn a pretty decent life quickly than those have been here centuries ago. Because they're minority, but other minorities such as the Jews and Asians are working hard and earning a decent life here. Because of less chance to get education, but you have affirmative action that you can get into decent college at a hu…

I think it's mostly cultural. I don't know of any other culture where the idea of shunning success is so widespread. People are made fun of for "acting white", studying, or shunned for "not being black".

Re: The effects of living in a poor neighborhood

#90

Post by Arainach » Wed, Jun 08, 2016, 7:44 AM UTC

ausjke wrote: post #76

Why blacks are not doing well? Because they were from Africa, but new immigrants from Africa came to US earn a pretty decent life quickly than those have been here centuries ago. Because they're minority, but other minorities such as the Jews and Asians are working hard and earning a decent life here. Because of less chance to get education, but you have affirmative action that you can get into decent college at a hu…

Opportunity doesn't cure everything. If you take two people who both have the opportunity to earn the same income, that doesn't equate to the same standard of living. In particular, blacks (and other minorities) have dramatically lower levels of savings. This has real world consequences - if you have family members with savings, you have opportunities to take risks and fail. You have family members that can loan you money if times get rough rather than have to deal with payday loans, credit cards, or other high interest/high risk sources. You may feel more able to start your own business, knowing that if you fail there are family members who could take you in for a bit. The consequences run far deeper than just these examples.