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A Guaranteed Income for Every American

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Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#81

Post by trbvm2 »

jkelsey wrote: post #49
DanBC wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI isn't about libertarianism, it's about reducing the fucking stupid disincentives built into current benefits systems. Instead of telling people that they can have this money only if they work less than 16 hours a week, or only if they stay disabled, just give them the money. That way you don't need to employ doctors to see if someone is still as disabled as they were last year, and people who get a part time job…

In the context of this article, it is very much about libertarianism (the strain of it that is willing to admit that we're facing a jobs crisis, at least). Check the article's author. They want to throw away any sort of a public social safety net, reduce taxes on the wealthy, throw the rest of us a bone and say good luck. I'm very much for a UBI, but as a part of a comprehensive progressive agenda, and certainly not…

Right-wingers are mostly absent from this conversation. The question at hand is "can we give people enough to amount to a comprehensive solution and thereby save administrative costs"?

I don't think any libertarian minded individuals actually believe in tossing out all safety nets and most likely don't care to reduce taxes on the wealthy either, at least not as a goal in and of itself.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#82

Post by dba7dba »

We shouldn't be talking about government paying basic income. We should talk about millionaires and billionaires paying living wage to everyone working in their home and every employee in their companies that they share ownership in. That would be a better conversation to have.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#83

Post by dba7dba »

We shouldn't be talking about government paying basic income. We should talk about millionaires and billionaires paying living wage to everyone working in their home and every employee in their companies that they share ownership in. That would be a better conversation to have.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#84

Post by mac01021 »

gizmo wrote: post #62
danbruc wrote: post #41

Several years ago I thought a universal basic income would be a good idea but the longer I thought about it the more that went away. Now I can't even tell which problem it tries to solve. There won't be enough work for everyone in the future? Well then cut down working hours instead of having half the population work full time and pay for the other half. Some jobs don't provide enough income to make a living? Then ha…

I think these are exactly the right observations. It's no coincidence that a lot of advocacy for the UBI comes from the far right who want to use it as a pretext to dismantle the welfare state. Conventional social programs are not perfect, but they exist to address specific issues and mostly do their job well. The efficiency gains to be made here are minimal. The real cost savings are made by simply paying the needy…

> a single mother with 3 kids has to make do with $10,000 a year?

Actually, under Murray's proposal, she has to make do with 10k per year plus whatever she can earn. If she's earning very, then she's probably doing all the childcare herself and her living costs are not much more than a single, childless woman. If she works full time, then her total income (earned and unearned) will be 30k at minimum.

I'm not saying I support the proposal, but I do think your rhetorical question mischaracterizes it.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#86

Post by jkelsey »

trbvm2 wrote: post #81
jkelsey wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the context of this article, it is very much about libertarianism (the strain of it that is willing to admit that we're facing a jobs crisis, at least). Check the article's author. They want to throw away any sort of a public social safety net, reduce taxes on the wealthy, throw the rest of us a bone and say good luck. I'm very much for a UBI, but as a part of a comprehensive progressive agenda, and certainly not…

Right-wingers are mostly absent from this conversation. The question at hand is "can we give people enough to amount to a comprehensive solution and thereby save administrative costs"? I don't think any libertarian minded individuals actually believe in tossing out all safety nets and most likely don't care to reduce taxes on the wealthy either, at least not as a goal in and of itself.

Yes they do. Read the article and read up on the article's author. It's quite literally based around eliminating the costs of the social programs and instead throwing everybody a flat $10K/year.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#87

Post by trbvm2 »

JorgeGT wrote: post #54
bkeroack wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people who are likely to drop out of the labor market are almost certainly not the motivated, high-productivity workers that actually benefit society. High achievers tend to be motivated by things like passion, creativity, need for recognition, etc, not purely income.

> The people who are likely to drop out of the labor market are almost certainly not the motivated, high-productivity workers that actually benefit society The people who are likely to drop out of their job are plumbers, dishwashers, garbage collectors, miners, mail carriers, highway maintainers, taxi drivers, manual fruit pickers and the rest of those performing soul-crushing jobs that actually allow society to keep…

All solvable problems though, no? If no one has to wash dishes in order to survive then you will have to offer a quite decent wage to get people to wash dishes else pay someone to finally make the washing of dishes completely automated. Supply and demand should dictate that the worst issue will end up being the rising cost of having a night on the town.

Same thing for any other currently low value jobs. We will have to adjust to paying people properly, even above minimum wage, to do things that suck. I view this as a desirable outcome when considered against the current situation in which only the most glamorous jobs tend to pay well, even if the job is not necessarily most helpful.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#88

Post by analyst74 »

arbre wrote: post #73

Wouldn't the price of everything raise accordingly, so that you basically can't afford anything with the basic income?

Price of goods with limited supply will rise, where the price floor is mostly determined by how much people are willing to pay.

Price of goods with unlimited supply, where the price floor is determined by cost, will not rise.

Although everything kind of fall somewhere in between the two extremes -- rent will probably go up, whereas food not so much. And many things will not be affected because poor people will not buy them with or without BI.

Re: A Guaranteed Income for Every American

#89

Post by mac01021 »

Cozumel wrote: post #79

Something I haven't seen anyone else mention, if UBI is introduced won't that cause prices to increase? For example, supermarket 'own brands' are usually cheaper than branded products, but if everyone is getting a minimum income then those prices won't need to be as cheap, just cheaper than alternatives.

Eggs and milk aren't getting more expensive to produce. So, if the currently-cheapest brand increases its price, it's opening a window for new competition to sell at the old low price.

It's possible that anticompetitive forces would prevent that competition from emerging in many cases, but I would not say that it is obvious that prices will increase under UBI.

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