Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation • Hacker News Board

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#81

Post by pinaceae » Tue, May 31, 2016, 4:24 AM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #44

guard-of-terra wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you define "against their will"? I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads (however I'm aware about Hungary'56 and Chezhoslovakia'68) This isn't a fair argument. Imagine, tomorrow USA fails, a lot of its former allies get current marginal opposition in power. They'll line up telling how USA occupied them, did this and that against their will. And they'll be partially ri…

To expand on your point: It wasn't Russia who invaded Czechoslovakia in 1968. It was entire Warsaw pact. Or, almost entire. There was one country, that didn't take part: Romania. Out of the entire Warsaw pact only Ceaușescu's Romania had the backbone to not invade. Others, like GDR, Poland, Hungary, took their part voluntarily. (That's nothing new: Poland and Hungary attacked the rump Czechoslovakia in 1938 too. That…

who gave the orders? who was in charge? was it the kremlin or the marsians?

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#82

Post by valcker » Tue, May 31, 2016, 10:05 AM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #76

valcker wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even Crimea itself is an example of stolen territory. It was part of Russia, until (Ukrainian) Khrushchev moved it under administration of Ukrainian SSR in 1954. It was excused as being in the same country anyway. Not entirely true as it was not a single-handed decision, it has been voted by a council. > When USSR dissolved, the Crimean referendum about returning it back to Russia was ignored by the newly-formed go…

The 1991 referendum was: Do you support re-establishing the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic as a subject of USSR and a party to the Treaty on the Creation of the USSR ? That means to be on the same level as Ukraine in the USSR, not under Ukraine. There were additional referendums, in 1992 and 1994, but they were asking questions with the reality of being part of Ukraine.

Crimea was an "oblast" (or region) of Ukrainian SSR and the referendum was about re-establishing the Crimean Autonomous republic which was the case and was signed by Ukrainian SSR council: http://zakon1.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/712-12

During the separation of republics from USSR, Crimea stayed as a part of Ukraine (and voted for the independence of Ukraine, btw) which was a logical move in terms of infrastructure.

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#83

Post by hewhowhineth » Tue, May 31, 2016, 11:10 AM UTC

pinaceae wrote: post #79

hewhowhineth wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also seem to forget that most of those countries were part of Hitler's forces that attacked the Soviet Union a few years before that. Small example would be Hungary that sent ~500,000 soldiers to the eastern front. That invasion resulted in ~5 million civilians being killed, let's ignore the military casualties and general destruction. Every country/nation did all kinds of nasty shit, it's just a matter of how far…

Poland? Czechoslovakia? What the fuck is going on here at HN? Is this Bizarro World?

Read again: most of those countries. Now make a list of countries that had its forces on the eastern front, and the list of the ones that didn't. Still Bizarro World?

Not that facts matter to you, but Poland attacked Soviets in 1920. Slovakia (Tiso regime) joined Hitler's forces on eastern front. They also attacked Poland and had a war with Hungary, both in 1939.

But given your attitude I'm pretty sure there won't be any meaningful discussion so I'll leave it at that.

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#84

Post by guard-of-terra » Tue, May 31, 2016, 12:24 PM UTC

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #66

guard-of-terra wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would you define "against their will"? I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads (however I'm aware about Hungary'56 and Chezhoslovakia'68) This isn't a fair argument. Imagine, tomorrow USA fails, a lot of its former allies get current marginal opposition in power. They'll line up telling how USA occupied them, did this and that against their will. And they'll be partially ri…

>I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads That's because these "representatives" were not representing the people of their countries. They were representing the interests of the USSR in those countries. I'll give you an example of what it looks like when something does not happen against the will of a country. In the 1960s, at the hight of the cold war, France asked NATO to leav…

They were certainly influenced to unhealthy degree, but those were still national countries represented by people of their nations. I imagine Soviets just took leading Polish/Hungarian/etc communist parties and made them the government. They still were Poles/Hungarians/etc.

In 1968, Albania withdrew from Warsaw pact. And that was it.

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#85

Post by pinaceae » Tue, May 31, 2016, 4:40 PM UTC

hewhowhineth wrote: post #83

pinaceae wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poland? Czechoslovakia? What the fuck is going on here at HN? Is this Bizarro World?

Read again: most of those countries . Now make a list of countries that had its forces on the eastern front, and the list of the ones that didn't. Still Bizarro World? Not that facts matter to you, but Poland attacked Soviets in 1920. Slovakia (Tiso regime) joined Hitler's forces on eastern front. They also attacked Poland and had a war with Hungary, both in 1939. But given your attitude I'm pretty sure there won't b…

and before that Russia occupied Poland together with Prussia and Austria, wiping out Polish statehood altogether for 123 years. Russification, heard of it?

the 1920 war was a result of that, Poles trying to reclaim territories in Ukraine - using the chaos of the Russian Revolution. but yeah, totally attacking Russia.

but all of that justifies the occupation by the Red Army from 1945 till 1989. yup.

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#86

Post by ptaipale » Tue, May 31, 2016, 8:08 PM UTC

woodandsteel wrote: post #40

dijit wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> it's like having a pit-bull in the corner that nobody loves because it defended them before in a savage way >That hilariously fails to describe Russia in any way most people would recognize. I agree. And that's a shame, Russia has always vied for peace and used force where peace was impossible. That's a trend we see all thoughout history (especially in Britain). We can't exactly crucify them for it. >That's a pret…

I think Russia's problem is it spent its entire history surrounded by powerful enemies, and was frequently invaded. As a consequence Putin honestly believes NATO has the intention of invading it, and so he thinks Russia has to take aggressive actions to prevent that. What he doesn't get is that, thanks to nuclear weapons and modern industrialization, NATO is not interested in doing that for either reasons of security…

>I think Russia's problem is it spent its entire history surrounded by powerful enemies

That applies not only to Russia, but to pretty much everyone. Particularly, it applies to each of Russia's neighbours...

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#87

Post by ptaipale » Tue, May 31, 2016, 8:18 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #33

aaronchall wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia occupied half of Europe, against the will of the countries occupied, for nearly 50 years. Good point. Seems like we forget this.

How would you define "against their will"? I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads (however I'm aware about Hungary'56 and Chezhoslovakia'68) This isn't a fair argument. Imagine, tomorrow USA fails, a lot of its former allies get current marginal opposition in power. They'll line up telling how USA occupied them, did this and that against their will. And they'll be partially ri…

>I mean, their representatives signed the Warsaw Pact without gun to their heads

There were other representatives that wouldn't have signed, but they had literally had guns to their heads, and trigger pulled. Soviet occupation of much of Europe was by force, lots of it. It involved disappearances and executions of dissenters and even potential dissenters. This was done by USSR in perfect harmony and agreement with Nazi Germany. It really, really was against the will of Central European nations, such as the Poles.

Not everyone there, of course; you can always find honest ideological support, willful lackeys and stupid fellow travelers. But these countries stayed under Soviet influence very much due to literally having guns to the heads of people. Katyn, for instance.

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#88

Post by ptaipale » Tue, May 31, 2016, 8:28 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #26

Russia's "Troll Army" probably doesn't speak Finnish. We're talking about "Troll Special Task Force" at maximum.

They obviously have sections for various foreign languages, including (but not limited to) Finnish.

Native Finnish-speakers have mostly been eliminated in Russia, except for some old people who are not up to working in the troll army.

But some people there still do study Finnish, and moreover, the troll army can direct volunteer trolls - e.g. people who were Communist sympathizers and hate USA and NATO.

Their dream is gone but their hate is still there. You'll find the "representative of Donetsk Republic" Johan Bäckman running in the elections for the "Finnish Workers Party", a fringe leftist party that got about 0.03 % of the popular vote. That doesn't stop him from representing "the Finnish view" in Russian media.

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#89

Post by ptaipale » Tue, May 31, 2016, 8:43 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #58

woodandsteel wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except those were all non-democratic puppet governments the Soviet Union had installed after WWII. Or maybe you believe communism is a form of democracy?

I was born in the Czechoslovakia. The thing is, that communists in 1948 really did win the elections. The people at the time really wanted communism. Just like in 1989 they wanted change for capitalism. Who knows, maybe in another 10-20-30 years they will want a change again. Should it be accompanied with a narrative, that the fall of Iron Curtain was a well orchestrated putsch to rob their countries?

>The thing is, that communists in 1948 really did win the elections.

Elections where the population was presented with a single list and where the police force and officials overseeing the election had been purged - both the army and police force were under Soviet-influenced Communist control. The only non-Communist minister, Jan Masaryk, was found defenestrated outside his office. (This was declared a suicide, but in 2004 Soviet archives indeed confirmed that he'd been thrown out of his window).

In simpler terms, this is called coup d'état.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Czechoslovak_coup_d%27%C3...

Re: Effort to Expose Russia’s ‘Troll Army’ Draws Vicious Retaliation

#90

Post by ptaipale » Tue, May 31, 2016, 8:48 PM UTC

vetinari wrote: post #77

xiaoma wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am being intellectually honest. Going back generations and claiming historical territory doesn't work peacefully in the long run.

It's not generation. The generation born when it was part of Russia still lives there. Their land was stolen from them, they took it back. Trying to cheat them does not work in the long run.

"Their land"? Ukraine wasn't changing any land ownership AFAIK. Russia on the other hand currently might be doing just that, for some people.

(Source: a person a met who was born there. He told me that as Crimea is now under Russian control, the land registry is also moved to Russian system. If you want to ensure land ownership of your home, you have to re-register. It's not cheap, so many people cannot afford it. If you don't re-register, nothing happens - unless you happen to speak out against the new order. In that case someone will notice that you don't own your home, it actually belongs to some new friend of the new powers-that-be, and in fact your home is somewhere in Krasnoyarsk Oblast which is where your family was registered in 1942 or so).