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So You Wanna Go On-Prem

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Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No updates. Hence the "As Is." They're buying the version of the website as it exists at the point of time when they buy it. The assumption being that it works for them now, it should continue working for them in the future, regardless of what direction the .com goes.

What about vulnerabilities then? Or is it supposed that the customer use it behind a firewall / VPN solution?

In this case, we're talking about software built on the Microsoft stack, so most of that is Windows Update's job (patching servers manually isn't really something that needs to happen in this world).

As to vulnerabilities in the handful of 3rd party libraries that we use? In the 10 years that Twiddla has been around, we've had exactly zero cases where we had to patch something from our end for security reasons.

I guess there's something to be said about avoiding the tall skinny (and wobbly) tower of 3rd party dependencies that seems to be the norm these days in web app development.

Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#83
After years working at a company that has a 10 year old on-prem and had a saas app as well, here is my POV on this:

On premise vs saas is a trade off in the type of customer support.

With on-prem, you do have support complicated by customers have unique infrastructure, and varying degrees of knowledge and post within their organization. Some people are adept, some are not. Some support keeps you screen sharing for hours, some do not.

In general for on-prem, support is done via your customer support app, professionally, as you're usually dealing with an IT department.

On the other hand, SaaS customer support volune/time is a measure of how often you break stuff for ALL (some, of you're lucky) of you're customers at the same time). Often an issue is experienced by many rather than a single person. "Always" (ish) it's your fault instead of being an issue of a customers configuration or infrastructure. Often Twitter becomes the public stomping ground for complaints, as you get end-users going to Twitter rather than an issue bumped up from an end user took their IT before reaching you.

In considering of you want to support on-prem, a key point is to keep your software simple. For example, optionally (and easily) logging to files instead of to reduce requirements on external systems (elastic search).

Making the app as simple and easy to run as possible is pretty important. Definitely very strongly consider if you need to rely on that saas app for your App to run.

Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#84
post #6

One thing I would call out: don't do CI to these people. Eat the pain and cut honest-to-goodness versions. Ideally, cut them on the quarter, so that your customers can comfortably expect a New Version to be available at a specific time. I used to be on the other side of this desk, so.... trust me. It makes it easier when we can all refer to a specific version. You can throw us specific patches or whatever. From the d…

Stable versions is the correct way to do it, but it certainly has a cost. You have to support a version with bugs you fixed months ago. You will have to backport security patches and other critical fixes. If you have refactored the code since the stable release merging fixes back to the release branch is much more work. So people will resent the person who made extra work for them by refactoring. Soon everything has the wrong name and functions are 1000 lines long because nobody dares to refactor.

Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#85

After years working at a company that has a 10 year old on-prem and had a saas app as well, here is my POV on this: On premise vs saas is a trade off in the type of customer support. With on-prem, you do have support complicated by customers have unique infrastructure, and varying degrees of knowledge and post within their organization. Some people are adept, some are not. Some support keeps you screen sharing for ho…

> In considering of you want to support on-prem, a key point is to keep your software simple. For example, optionally (and easily) logging to files instead of to reduce requirements on external systems (elastic search).

We have extensive experience doing this over here, and this is key. Keep things even simpler than you think they could ever be, because "simple" times gazillions produces terrific economies of scale.

During interviews I'm often asked if I have experience on a product "at scale", by which interviewers often suppose it can only mean some typically tiered load balancers/front-end code/backend code/data persistence and you spin up new dynos/AWS of what is really (taken as a whole) a single cohesive application to face demand, and ultimately get dismissive when I tell them I'm not working on a 1Mreq/min product... but there's a whole other orthogonal dimension to "scale" which most products have firmly locked to 1, and believe me, everything suddenly follows a square law when your code and architecture can have an impact on each dimension, especially the one that involves humans that don't have the level of intimacy with neither your product, team, or methods.

Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#86

This topic is mildly amusing because I remember when all (or most) software was sold as "on-prem". Then everything moved to SaaS...and now everything is moving back to on-prem! I used to work for Atlassian which made most of its money at the time I left in 2013 from on-prem software. It was low-touch, high-volume sales to people downloading and installing software on their own servers. They still sell a ton of it too…

No, "everything" is not moving back on-prem, just like "everything" never moved to the cloud. But a great many things did move to the cloud, even more were conceived there, and practically all of them are going to stay there. You can successfully run a whole business of a very respectable size without managing even a single on-prem device, and that's great, and that's not going to change. The push back to on-prem isn…

I agree it's not a dichotomy. However,it's also not a "new" market and it's not just dinosaur enterprises buying on-prem software.

Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#87
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're big, AWS is a huge waste of money.

Could you provide some data to back up your claims? I've seen quite a few comments like yours claiming that the cloud service providers are so expensive, and yet I've yet to see anyone proving it except for the few exceptions.

I think azernik's reply in the other point of the thread illustrates very well how well scoped, scalable SaaS workloads are very amenable to cloud. His example is Amazon Workmail, my real-life example is Office 365, where Microsoft can essentially offer Exchange, Lync, SharePoint and Office apps for less than it would cost us to deliver Office apps + Exchange -- and make a margin.

That's old news, as Forrester reported back in 2009. https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.google.com/en...

It's just a matter of doing the math. It's very situational, and unfortunately I don't have anything that I've done that I am at liberty to share. I can say that in my case, at least 75% of apps we've looked at were rejected for AWS/Azure because they clearly cost more (25%) to operate, or savings were very marginal and our data about stuff like outbound bandwidth requirements was insufficient.

Keep in mind, my employer operates two shiny, efficient datacenters. We drive significant vendor savings based on purchase volumes. For a startup with no capital, AWS/Azure/etc is a no-brainer.

Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're big and are a typical company bad at IT, AWS is a massive cost savings. Most HN readers probably aren't very familiar with the costing and the line item levels of bureaucracy in Fortune 500 enterprise IT that makes AWS bills of $200k / mo for maybe 10 lightweight websites ( These companies want to buy software to throw over the fence to the same people and processes because they've invested decades in their…

I don't see how a company terrible at managing IT will magically improve with AWS. Maybe they won't get killed as badly by EMC and shift wastage to various AWS services. I'm not knocking Amazon -- just saying that you can deliver most enterprise workloads cheaper.

Enterprises are abominably bad at IT as a rule and horrifically inefficient partly because they have made terrible decisions they are stuck with for decades or longer. The raw costs they pay to bloodsucking contractors that are nickel and dimed year after year is systemic, for example. Are you familiar with DoD contract price structuring by chance? Furthermore, are you aware of how desperate people are to deploy software onto something like AWS? There's a lot of reasons why the AWS office is in Virginia and is at least 50%+ security engineering in background. Trying to secure enterprise applications on-premise with the tools of the 90s is frustrating and typically an exercise in massive time wasting when most companies didn't even think about automation of work because the money was pouring in so much.

The amusing irony of this all is that IT is a cost center typically yet by trying to cut costs you wind up costing yourself so much over time.

Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What about vulnerabilities then? Or is it supposed that the customer use it behind a firewall / VPN solution?

In this case, we're talking about software built on the Microsoft stack, so most of that is Windows Update's job (patching servers manually isn't really something that needs to happen in this world). As to vulnerabilities in the handful of 3rd party libraries that we use? In the 10 years that Twiddla has been around, we've had exactly zero cases where we had to patch something from our end for security reasons. I gue…

> In the 10 years that Twiddla has been around, we've had exactly zero cases where we had to patch something from our end for security reasons.

That is quite good compared to the rest of the industry. Nice work!

Re: So You Wanna Go On-Prem

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with maintaining the install is that it really slows down your deployment of feature and evolving the ecosystem. It's not just a matter of extra know how. SaaS is more than just ease of use, it's a very very rapid and competive delivery of new features day in day out. Companies are adopting SaaS not just because they don't want to maintain the infrastructure / install software. They're adopting SaaS becau…

Vendors have responded to this challenge for a while with Long-Term Support builds to complement the standard product cycle. Get a major set of features that your on-prem customers want, freeze the features, and keep 12, 18, 24 months between major feature updates. Most companies of any complexity are going to be unable to integrate into their business processes all of your latest and greatest features as fast as the…

Yes, that model works, but it is going to use up resources that simply will not be an issue if you're running entirely as a service.
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