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The Toyota Witch Hunt

businessweek.com

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Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#81

Post by strebler »

Sthorpe wrote: post #35
groaner wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to agree; I can sense the schadenfreude all over the place and it's getting annoying.

Hacker News is great. I had been thinking this exact same thing but then realized I was being ridiculous. However, isn't it a little scary to realize how no one is in control of us? I noticed this when I was riding on Bart. Everyone acts a particular way based on what other people expect them to act like. We all operate with so much order and yet no one is telling us to. Just thought this was cool.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing and wrote a post about it a week ago: http://mopchopshop.wordpress.com/2010/03/02/the-toyota-witch...

(Note, post happen to have the same title, but totally different content)

I just found Hacker News yesterday, this site is amazing.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#82

Post by jsz0 »

It's times like this I feel like someone needs to tell the American people to grow up and stop acting like scared children. They're so easily manipulated by simple fear tactics. Automobiles are incredibly dangerous simply due to the drivers behind the wheel. Design flaws are the least of your worries. We can't seem to muster the same type of concentrated rage against drunk drivers, texting drivers, or any other impairments that make automobiles less safe. We can't even make laws that make automobiles safer by design. Why aren't side air bags a requirement? or roof air bags? More frequent safety inspections? Bad tires or worn out windshield wipers are so much more dangerous than the statistical improbability of a stuck throttle. It really makes me incredibly angry how capable Americans are of ignoring big problems and focusing on the tiny ones instead. We're doomed as a country if this mindset doesn't change and I'm not sure we don't deserve it.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#83

Post by jsz0 »

erlanger wrote: post #8

I hold the conspiracy theory that these issues are being so aggressively sought out in an attempt to bring Toyota's image down to the level of American auto manufacturers.

I don't buy that. The US has a big interest in the Japanese economy that goes well beyond the auto industry. I think it's just media fear mongering. If you do own a Toyota it's hard to ignore so they're going to milk it for every cent it's worth.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#84

Post by wisty »

anamax wrote: post #65
paulbaumgart wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't shifting to neutral make the engine rev up really high? Does the computer limit the RPMs to prevent damage?

> Wouldn't shifting to neutral make the engine rev up really high? Does the computer limit the RPMs to prevent damage? Yes, the computers do. However, if you're going to have an accident, engine damage is pretty low on the list of concerns, even if you ignore the fact that accidents cause engine damage.

Switching the engine off (if you can do it fast enough) should slow you down faster though. If you stay in gear with no ignition, the engine drag will brake you a bit.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#85

Post by electromagnetic »

evgen wrote: post #57
presidentender wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree. The sheer number of failures that have to occur, the low level of action on the drivers' parts required to overcome the problem (put it in neutral! Use your brakes! Use your parking brakes!), the speed and intensity of the government's response, and the fact that GM is so unpopular combine to make the entire debacle suspect.

While it is easy to say "put it in neutral", this is not quite a simple as it once was. With the popular serpentine shift patterns on modern cars a lot of people are surprised to find that neutral is no longer just a spot on the transition path between park and drive. To take a frequently cited example, the ES350 whose stuck accelerator killed a CHP officer and his family has a shift pattern that makes getting into n…

Putting into neutral isn't a necessity, any downshift in gears will increase the torque of the engine and thus decrease the maximum velocity. Even if you can't get it into neutral, getting it into 1st or 2nd will still get you slowed down to a more manageable speed.

The major failure of all automobile manufacturers is that they haven't implemented a fail safe mechanism in the event of engine failure at velocity. If they had it would literally be as simple as turning the engine off and the brakes deploying at a reasonable (IE not maximum) pressure.

The fact of the matter is that every vehicle except consumer automobiles fail safe from aeroplanes to tractor trailers (power failure leads to de-pressurizing of the air compressor and the brakes apply harder as the air level decreases). Toyota shouldn't be being hauled up, they all should be for risking civilian lives. IMO you accept certain risks when you pilot an aircraft, train, or transportation vehicle, however these are all typically far safer than the vehicles readily handed to consumers. That just is not right.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#86

Post by MikeCapone »

joe_the_user wrote: post #76
presidentender wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree. The sheer number of failures that have to occur, the low level of action on the drivers' parts required to overcome the problem (put it in neutral! Use your brakes! Use your parking brakes!), the speed and intensity of the government's response, and the fact that GM is so unpopular combine to make the entire debacle suspect.

Considering you haven't presented air-tight evidence for your position, I think you should consider another issue. The increased use of electronic control in automobiles means that cars now have the problem that software has had for a while; real but difficult to reproduce bugs. When the control of the car has gone away from physical devices like rods and wires, not only is it harder to find the control but any probl…

That's true.

What bugs me is that people don't keep things in perspective. I see people all the time claim they want to go back to the way cars were (more mechanically simple, or whatever). What they seem to forget is that cars broke down a hell of a lot more often back then.

In fact, they broke down so often that it wasn't such a big deal. Now we expect them to work flawlessly and when something goes wrong it somehow seems worse.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#87

Post by MikeCapone »

strebler wrote: post #81
Sthorpe wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hacker News is great. I had been thinking this exact same thing but then realized I was being ridiculous. However, isn't it a little scary to realize how no one is in control of us? I noticed this when I was riding on Bart. Everyone acts a particular way based on what other people expect them to act like. We all operate with so much order and yet no one is telling us to. Just thought this was cool.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing and wrote a post about it a week ago: http://mopchopshop.wordpress.com/2010/03/02/the-toyota-witch... (Note, post happen to have the same title, but totally different content) I just found Hacker News yesterday, this site is amazing.

> I just found Hacker News yesterday, this site is amazing.

Say goodbye to your free time and productivity.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#88

Post by MikeCapone »

jcromartie wrote: post #49
pohl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the news media doesn't decide which drum to beat every night based upon which drum people expect them to beat.

The first concern of most news networks today is ratings/viewer numbers. They pick stories that will attract the average person, and thus you have Missing White Woman Syndrome. It's also well documented that certain networks (i.e. FOX News) have stuck to a schedule of talking points handed to them by various political entities.

They also love "counter-intuitive" stories, so it's easier to sell a story about how a company that seemed to be doing really well is doing something bad instead of a bad thing happening to a mediocre company that nobody likes much anyway.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#89

Post by MikeCapone »

idoh wrote: post #36
zzzmarcus wrote: post #25

Can someone explain to me why Congress gets involved in investigating things like Toyota's manufacturing defects or the way college football teams are ranked? Does Congress have a legal mandate to investigate anything it deems to be interesting/fishy/a potential target for legislation? Has Congress always conducted these types of investigations or is it a modern phenomenon?

Don't hate the players, hate the game. They do what they do to get reelected.

I'm pretty sure I can still hate the players.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#90

Post by erso »

electromagnetic wrote: post #85
evgen wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While it is easy to say "put it in neutral", this is not quite a simple as it once was. With the popular serpentine shift patterns on modern cars a lot of people are surprised to find that neutral is no longer just a spot on the transition path between park and drive. To take a frequently cited example, the ES350 whose stuck accelerator killed a CHP officer and his family has a shift pattern that makes getting into n…

Putting into neutral isn't a necessity, any downshift in gears will increase the torque of the engine and thus decrease the maximum velocity. Even if you can't get it into neutral, getting it into 1st or 2nd will still get you slowed down to a more manageable speed. The major failure of all automobile manufacturers is that they haven't implemented a fail safe mechanism in the event of engine failure at velocity. If t…

Getting it into a lower gear would mean the engine's current RPM is at a level low enough for the transmission to allow you to shift it into a lower gear. You can throw an automatic into "1" at 80mph and it won't comply.
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