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Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

paulgraham.com

81–90 of 125 posts

Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

#81
post #65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, at this stage, the amount of flak that Arc has received is so disproportionate to the normal amount of flak that new ideas receive because it hasn't solved any problems that real hackers have encountered , well enough that they'd want to switch to writing programs in it. You haven't really solved the overlooked problem of core language design until people start using your cleaner core language, and to do…

It solves the problem hackers face in every program they write, and which high level languages exist to solve: making programs smaller. Try translating some Arc programs into Common Lisp or Scheme and you'll see what I mean. And incidentally, I don't have to give hardened users of existing languages reason enough to switch. There are new people learning to program all the time, and to them, all languages are on a lev…

Arc solves the problem of making programs smaller, I agree. I'm not merely admitting that: that's exactly the thing that's impressed me about Arc 0 in the first place. But the problem with programming languages is that they aren't single-purpose honed tools: they're more like a swiss army knife, or a house that the programmer has to live in, or an operating system for the programmer's thoughts, if you will. What a programming language has in common with all of the above is that it has to solve very many problems at once: in order to be considered an unequivocal advancement, it has to solve _all sorts_ of problems at least as well as languages people are already using. Arc currently solves only one problem, albeit very well, and solutions to all of the other problems (copious libraries, that profiler thing you mentioned in one of your essays, abundant and welcoming documentation - all stuff you've identified as necessary for a successful programming language in your own essays, in fact) are being delayed until a later release, an unspecified date in the future.

Taking the analogy to a house, Arc is like a half finished construction project. The frame is up, they're still putting insulation in, and there's one finished room with a cot, a table, and a hot plate which Paul Graham is using to cook the news.yc software. Sure, you might attract scads of interior decorators by opening your house up to random strangers, but very few programmers will be willing to come over to live in Arc. They'll stay in their own houses which are already well stocked with comfortable furniture, decorations, etc., even if it is all a little cluttered and you have to go through the kitchen in order to reach the library from the bedroom.

Some of the people speaking out against Arc are genuine trolls, but some are just saying in a non-tactful way that they'd prefer to stay in a house with drywall, thank you very much.

Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

#82
post #65
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, at this stage, the amount of flak that Arc has received is so disproportionate to the normal amount of flak that new ideas receive because it hasn't solved any problems that real hackers have encountered , well enough that they'd want to switch to writing programs in it. You haven't really solved the overlooked problem of core language design until people start using your cleaner core language, and to do…

It solves the problem hackers face in every program they write, and which high level languages exist to solve: making programs smaller. Try translating some Arc programs into Common Lisp or Scheme and you'll see what I mean. And incidentally, I don't have to give hardened users of existing languages reason enough to switch. There are new people learning to program all the time, and to them, all languages are on a lev…

Does Arc make JavaScript look really verbose? I'm guessing it does, if conciseness is its primary goal. How much of the delta is due to its macro system?

Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

#83
>> 'Startup funding meant series A rounds: millions of dollars given to a small number of startups founded by people with established credentials after months of serious, businesslike meetings, on terms described in a document a foot thick.'

This is a bit of a stretch in my opinion - there has always been companies taking smaller investments; whether seed from a VC, seed from an individual Angel, or borrowing money from family.

Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

#85
post #74
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's what you mean by market, there's no market for any programming language.

Is it for a programming language startup to make money if you have a superior language? Say you have a programing language that is to Lisp as Lisp was to Fortran, how (if at all) can you make money from it?

It's been tried, eg. Clean, Dylan, or Miranda. Results are not really encouraging, and the language often gets open-sourced after its owner realizes they can't make money off it. And those languages are really nice languages (Dylan is my favorite Lisp variant, and Clean and Miranda are in many ways friendlier versions of Haskell).

Companies tend to have much better luck if the language is attached to a product, either as a scripting language or as part of a RAD suite. Think of AutoCad/AutoLisp, Flash/ActionScript, or Visual Basic.

But for general-purpose languages, not so much.

Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

#86
post #38

I agree on general principle, but there's a big difference between Viaweb & YCombinator vs. Arc: Market. Viaweb and YC were each aimed at the overlooked low end of a market. Small businesses may not be sexy, but they had a pressing need for a web presence, and the can't write it themselves.. College students and young professionals may not be experienced, but they have a real need for money and advice, and they (usua…

I think there's very interesting thing happening around Arc. It appears that people there are less afraid of making mistakes or repeating past attempts. Maybe because pg broke some Lisp traditions so that others feel more free to step out of them as well. Maybe because people with other language background are gathering so there are more divergence of minds. I have my own Scheme implementation (Gauche) and I live on…

It's funny, I was commenting to a friend a couple days ago that I really liked arclanguage.com because people were hacking there instead of talking about hacking or arguing about hacking. Kinda at odds with what I'm saying on this thread. Maybe I'm just a natural contrarian.

I dunno. I could certainly be wrong - I was about Reddit. (Though I was also wrong about Xobni, and they did basically the opposite of everything PG suggests in this article.)

Maybe I'm just not the target market for Arc. I'd like to think I'm a smart person, and I did download it and play around with it and reimplement it. But right now, I'm finding that Python and JavaScript let me do more cool things, so I'd rather play around with them.

Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

#87
post #77
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it for a programming language startup to make money if you have a superior language? Say you have a programing language that is to Lisp as Lisp was to Fortran, how (if at all) can you make money from it?

The only way I can think of would be to keep it secret and write applications in it.

Matlab is actually high-level language so it is possible to monetize computer language.

Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

#88
post #77
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it for a programming language startup to make money if you have a superior language? Say you have a programing language that is to Lisp as Lisp was to Fortran, how (if at all) can you make money from it?

The only way I can think of would be to keep it secret and write applications in it.

Do you think that the language you use matters much? i.e. if you have a language that makes you twice as productive as in Arc, would that be a big advantage or a small one? (compared to having money, a good idea or being smart, etc.)

Re: Paul Graham: Six Principles for Making New Things

#90
post #87
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way I can think of would be to keep it secret and write applications in it.

Matlab is actually high-level language so it is possible to monetize computer language.

I just use Octave (open source implementation of Matlab)
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