How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India • Hacker News Board

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#81

Post by omegaham » Mon, May 09, 2016, 2:55 AM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #70

MichaelBurge wrote: post #64

A quick Google search shows that they paid $11 billion for the company that sells the drug(Sovaldi), and earned $1.3 billion off of it[1] in 2016. They make half of that in the US, and something like 10% of it in all places that aren't the US, Europe, or Japan. That's a 12% return in 2016, which isn't nearly as good as the comments in this thread would have you believe. It's an okay return, but it wouldn't really be…

Or... $11B was a terrible price to pay, and their desire to recoup their shitty investment still shouldn't be allowed to bankrupt people who just want to live. It's also incredibly obtuse to call $84k a "30% premium" on raising a child. There are so many people who don't (because they can't) spend close to $245k, more that can barely pull it off, and even more that shouldn't have pharma rates kept artificially inflat…

> and their desire to recoup their shitty investment still shouldn't be allowed to bankrupt people who just want to live.

The natural response to that is, "Well, okay then - we won't be investing in lifesaving medication development because we'll have to deal with constant cries of 'You're bankrupting people who just want to live!'" We already see this with antibiotics.

Now, boner pills, on the other hand - that's a smart investment. No one will complain if people can't afford boner pills.

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#82

Post by nkozyra » Mon, May 09, 2016, 2:58 AM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #76

nkozyra wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're essentially saying it's ok to price out large segments of the population for life-saving medication. This is life or death, not a new Audi versus a used Hyundai. There is an ethical consideration that your analogues ignore.

At some point, the price of a thing is related to the resources a person can bear on a task. People are priced out of better lives all the time - cars, jobs, where they live, what they eat. Its the way society works. To make medicine a special case, with the govt providing infinitely deep pockets, is irrational. Inconsistent with how we run everything else anyway. Yes I believe studying, working, getting ahead ought…

> People are priced out of better lives all the time

But again, this is not what we're debating. It's why the "average car price" does not apply.

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#83

Post by zaroth » Mon, May 09, 2016, 3:04 AM UTC

justinpombrio wrote: post #65

rayiner wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly is "gouging?" The average wedding in the U.S. is almost $30,000. Average new car price is $33,000. Is $84,000 one-time an unreasonable price for a complete cure to a chronic disease?

The median lifetime earnings in the US is $1.7 million or so [1]. $84 thousand is 5% of that. 5% of all the money you will ever make is a lot, considering that most of that money is already accounted for by college tuition, housing, and transportation. Also consider that this is a lump sum, that you weren't planning for it, and that this may happen in the middle of your life when you've only made a fraction of all th…

I think you need to factor in that it's not the individual personally paying 5% of their earnings, the personal cost is simply one year of your insurance out-of-pocket max. Anyone and everyone should be ready, willing, and able to pay for one year of whatever their out-of-pocket maximum is in order to access a miracle cure for a terminal illness.

The better question is what are insurance companies actually paying and how much should they have to pay? And then we get to the actual reason the drug is priced so high... it's because it is actually less expensive per cured human than all the alternatives. At $84k, this drug is actually saving insurance companies money per-cure.

The problem is that the cure is so damn good that everyone wants it right away, where-as the previous choices sucked badly so only a small percentage of the inflicted even went for it. Exactly how the OP describes, the cure is so good and so free of side-effects, patients want it even before they are showing symptoms of the disease! Of course the insurance companies can't afford to cure the planet of HepC all in one year -- there has to be a way to spread the (lower) cost over time.

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#84

Post by MichaelGG » Mon, May 09, 2016, 3:05 AM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #70

MichaelBurge wrote: post #64

A quick Google search shows that they paid $11 billion for the company that sells the drug(Sovaldi), and earned $1.3 billion off of it[1] in 2016. They make half of that in the US, and something like 10% of it in all places that aren't the US, Europe, or Japan. That's a 12% return in 2016, which isn't nearly as good as the comments in this thread would have you believe. It's an okay return, but it wouldn't really be…

Or... $11B was a terrible price to pay, and their desire to recoup their shitty investment still shouldn't be allowed to bankrupt people who just want to live. It's also incredibly obtuse to call $84k a "30% premium" on raising a child. There are so many people who don't (because they can't) spend close to $245k, more that can barely pull it off, and even more that shouldn't have pharma rates kept artificially inflat…

Ultimately if we want companies to do research but not be able to charge prices, then the government should be involved. It's like the case with Turing pharma. Everyone's upset at him for buying a (very old) drug for a very rare condition and raising the prices. Yet... why was he able to buy the drug in the first place? Look there, don't blame the person that found a golden penny.

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#85

Post by rayiner » Mon, May 09, 2016, 3:07 AM UTC

themartorana wrote: post #70

MichaelBurge wrote: post #64

A quick Google search shows that they paid $11 billion for the company that sells the drug(Sovaldi), and earned $1.3 billion off of it[1] in 2016. They make half of that in the US, and something like 10% of it in all places that aren't the US, Europe, or Japan. That's a 12% return in 2016, which isn't nearly as good as the comments in this thread would have you believe. It's an okay return, but it wouldn't really be…

Or... $11B was a terrible price to pay, and their desire to recoup their shitty investment still shouldn't be allowed to bankrupt people who just want to live. It's also incredibly obtuse to call $84k a "30% premium" on raising a child. There are so many people who don't (because they can't) spend close to $245k, more that can barely pull it off, and even more that shouldn't have pharma rates kept artificially inflat…

> It's also incredibly obtuse to call $84k a "30% premium" on raising a child. There are so many people who don't (because they can't) spend close to $245k[.]

Lots of people can't afford gas at $4/gallon, and need to buy gas to get to work. But does that mean the fair price for gas is $2 or $1? Does that mean it's reprehensible to impose a carbon tax that would make gas even more unaffordable for poor people? And when oil was $4/gallon, oil companies were making money hand-over-first. Should we have forced those companies to sell oil at $2 instead?

The answer to these questions is, of course, "no." Making oil artificially cheap would badly distort peoples' incentives, undermine economic efficiency, and harm the environment. Making sure that poor people can still get around is of course an important concern, but one we can solve through the appropriate welfare systems.

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#86

Post by refurb » Mon, May 09, 2016, 3:08 AM UTC

MichaelBurge wrote: post #64

A quick Google search shows that they paid $11 billion for the company that sells the drug(Sovaldi), and earned $1.3 billion off of it[1] in 2016. They make half of that in the US, and something like 10% of it in all places that aren't the US, Europe, or Japan. That's a 12% return in 2016, which isn't nearly as good as the comments in this thread would have you believe. It's an okay return, but it wouldn't really be…

Even more interesting, the California Technology Assessment Forum (CTAF), which reviews the cost effectiveness of new technology, said the $95K price tag for Harvoni was cost effective.[1]

However, they also said that current budgets mean it would only be affordable at half the price.

[1]http://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/ca-panel-gilead-s-harvoni...

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#87

Post by MichaelBurge » Mon, May 09, 2016, 3:09 AM UTC

cowsandmilk wrote: post #79

MichaelBurge wrote: post #64

A quick Google search shows that they paid $11 billion for the company that sells the drug(Sovaldi), and earned $1.3 billion off of it[1] in 2016. They make half of that in the US, and something like 10% of it in all places that aren't the US, Europe, or Japan. That's a 12% return in 2016, which isn't nearly as good as the comments in this thread would have you believe. It's an okay return, but it wouldn't really be…

> A quick Google search shows that they paid $11 billion for the company that sells the drug(Sovaldi), and earned $1.3 billion off of it[1] in 2016 Well, we are only 1 quarter into 2016, and you are only looking at Sovaldi (when sofosbuvir is also a component of Harvoni)? Q1 2016 is: - $1.3B in sales of Sovaldi - $3.0B in sales of Harvoni So, that's $4.3B in sales in Q1, a poor man's approximation of multiplying by 4…

I probably misread it then.

That starts to get into the realm of being unambiguously unfair. At the very least, they probably should've paid more money for it so that the people who developed the drug could've gotten their share.

Maybe it was just a risky purchase that turned out unexpectedly successful. I've never evaluated a $10+ billion deal, but I imagine I'd be scared of it falling through if I asked for too much.

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#88

Post by discardorama » Mon, May 09, 2016, 3:09 AM UTC

MichaelGG wrote: post #84

themartorana wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or... $11B was a terrible price to pay, and their desire to recoup their shitty investment still shouldn't be allowed to bankrupt people who just want to live. It's also incredibly obtuse to call $84k a "30% premium" on raising a child. There are so many people who don't (because they can't) spend close to $245k, more that can barely pull it off, and even more that shouldn't have pharma rates kept artificially inflat…

Ultimately if we want companies to do research but not be able to charge prices, then the government should be involved. It's like the case with Turing pharma. Everyone's upset at him for buying a (very old) drug for a very rare condition and raising the prices. Yet... why was he able to buy the drug in the first place? Look there, don't blame the person that found a golden penny.

> then the government should be involved.

The government is involved. Most of these drugs would not exist were it not for the NIH.

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#89

Post by refurb » Mon, May 09, 2016, 3:12 AM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #68

jessriedel wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does it bother you that Europe and the rest of the developing world also free-ride subtantially?

Not particularly. By the way pharmaceutical companies also free ride on public universities. Research is often done there. Even if it is from grants, it often means professors end up working and spending their time for pharma companies instead of doing other things like teaching students. Moreover, if our goal is to win hearts and minds and I don't know, promote Democracy (at least that is what the propaganda tells u…

By the way pharmaceutical companies also free ride on public universities.

Free ride? You think pharmaceutical companies just come along and pluck the best drugs for free? No, they out-license it from the university and pay royalties.

How else would Northwestern University build a brand new chemistry building from their Lyrica royalties?

Re: How I Got the $84k Hepatitis C Drug for $1500 by Buying It from India

#90

Post by marincounty » Mon, May 09, 2016, 3:12 AM UTC

MichaelBurge wrote: post #64

A quick Google search shows that they paid $11 billion for the company that sells the drug(Sovaldi), and earned $1.3 billion off of it[1] in 2016. They make half of that in the US, and something like 10% of it in all places that aren't the US, Europe, or Japan. That's a 12% return in 2016, which isn't nearly as good as the comments in this thread would have you believe. It's an okay return, but it wouldn't really be…

Most people don't know they have even been exposed to the virus. The test is not a standard test. You need to go in with specific symptomology, "like I have pain in my upper right quadrant.", or your liver enzymes are off, and you say "no" when the doctor asks you about your drinking habit.

As to profit, it's way too early.

The affordable care act will pay for it when your liver starts to break down from the virus. In what world does it make sence to treat a virus at that time, if you can kill the virus early? Before it does its damage?

My father died from liver cancer, and it was hell. Any doctor out there knows dying if liver failure is a particularly bad way to go.

I don't have an answer that's going to make everyone, including shareholders, all fuzzy, and protected. I think it's crazy to let them charge whatever they want for a particuliar, lifesaving drug.

I guess in the United States the right medication will go to the highest bidder? Poor folks, like myself, will just be Given the opportunity to watch the creative t.v. commercials? "I so glad Biff is going to live. Too bad he got those tattoos when he was finding his focus in life. Hay, but thank god we have money to pay for his medication." "Let's pop a purple pill, and have more rich kids?" "Gotta love America!"