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Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

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Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#81
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I got through undergrad and grad school. I framed every class and assignment as a competition me vs. the teacher and/or me vs. the other students.

Which seems really weird to me - education isn't a competition it's a collaboration with the teacher and the other students. This mindset seems harmful to me as I see it playing out with my kids "teacher X set this homework and will tell me off if I don't do it" rather than "teacher X set this homework and I'll not understand the subject as well if I don't do it". The kids think the homework is "for the teacher" rath…

It's a competition to gaining knowledge.

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#82
post #21

I'm a man and I really dislike competitive aspects of society. I mean if I'm playing a game and it's for fun, I'm okay with it, as long as everyone play to play, not play to win. If I'm literally competing to earn a living, or if it ends up in praising winners and blaming losers, it won't be enjoyable, and I'd rather not play at all. Having humility also means that when you win, you also congratulate losers for playi…

You are right and you are probably left leaning politically and are pro immigration, also you are probably not physically strong. The reason for your avoidance of competition is both environmentally affected and genetic. Your parents, maybe even grandparents, were probably raised in an environment where they didn't have to struggle too much at life. This kind of life changes genetic expression in a way that adapts to…

Sounds like a newer version of eugenics with a bit of social darwinism in it.

Actually I come from a family of people who either hide during the war (jewish/polish origins), or suffered from it. Maybe you'd also label it as "didn't have to struggle too much at life".

Eitherway, I don't think society was built to reflect the state of nature and competition. If you think struggle is good, I think you have some skewed belief of "life" in general. I don't have such belief.

Also comparing people and rabbits is really ridiculous. Even behavior psychologist and sociologists don't go that far.

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#83

Gender discussion is too often framed as male vs. female these days. That's come from 30+ years of flawed output from the social science echo chamber and dogmatic denial of human nature. It doesn't matter if boys and girls do better under different conditions, they shouldn't be expected to perform equally in this way. What matters is that we understand those unique conditions and help children thrive whatever their g…

You mean whatever their sex? Gender is such a strange term.

When investigating the intersection of unconscious attitudes (often shaped by culture) and performance, gender is more relevant than sex. It's not whether you have this equipment or that but what groups you are perceived to belong to and what groups you see yourself as belonging to. In some cultures there are third genders with different cultural expectations: the Hijra in India, Kathoey in Thailand, some other groups in Indonesia. One would expect different stereotypes about their math, science, and reading talents, so it would probably be quite interesting to study stereotype threat there. That's not the case in this French study (probably) but there's no need to collapse the terminology artificially.

That's the crazy thing about stereotype threat and related psychological phenomena: you can manipulate the same people to perform better or worse simply by manipulating their perception of the situation. Thus the effect really can't be about biological sex. Check out reducingstereotypethreat.org for a comprehensive rundown of studies.

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#84

Protip: some of us can significantly increase our own throughput if we frame tasks like competitions. I'll add a warning about not overdoing this, as someone who has previously burned out before I am careful not to trick myself too often. Edit: at least -> out

I wish I'd know how to do that. My brain refuses to cooperate with any attempts to purposefully "frame" something, immediately recognizing it as fake.

About the only time I was able to "convince myself" something is a game was when I was going through such a hard time that I was automatically turning everything into silly games as a coping mechanism. For better or worse, I'm unable to do that anymore.

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#85
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which seems really weird to me - education isn't a competition it's a collaboration with the teacher and the other students. This mindset seems harmful to me as I see it playing out with my kids "teacher X set this homework and will tell me off if I don't do it" rather than "teacher X set this homework and I'll not understand the subject as well if I don't do it". The kids think the homework is "for the teacher" rath…

Yes, it is. But more often than not the kids can't see it that way. It's a rare child that understands why the teacher wants them to figure out how many watermelons fifty people bought at 3 different stores. Unfortunately, this mindset continues far longer than it should. Highschool students, unlike their elementary counterparts, are more than capable of understanding what education is, but still continue to view it…

I think one of the reasons is the need for autonomy. I was one of the people who more often than not cheered when we had a day off college - because education interfered with my time to learn on my own. Often, I was learning the same (or related) stuff, but without the soul-draining and distracting experience of grading and deadlines.

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#86

The paper is paywalled so I can only read the abstract, but I am super curious to learn how the researchers were able to confidently determine the male students' rationale. The researchers claim that stereotype threat caused the male students to perform worse on the reading test when the students were not told the test was a game. How did the researchers figure this out without even asking the students? They are so c…

Asking the students wouldn't help -- very few of us are aware of our unconscious beliefs, especially since they are often in conflict with our conscious beliefs. Asking the students might be an interesting side project on awareness among 9-year-olds, but it won't shed any light on stereotype threat, which encompasses confidence anyway (that's one of the mechanisms).

After all, if you can get Asian women in the US to score significantly better and then significantly worse on a math test by first reminding them "Asians are good at math" and then "girls are bad at math", do you think they're going to be able to report on that "rationale"? And if they're aware of it, won't they subvert the whole experiment by using other sophisticated techniques like

(1) externalizing difficulty ("that researcher is just a jerk who doesn't know anything!"),

(2) reminding themselves of their complex self-identities and membership in several groups ("I'm a complex person; gender stereotypes are societal constructs; and remember, I'm Asian and I'm good at math -- let's use this stereotype for personal good!"), and

(3) using previous teachers' communication of high standards and assurance of capability, along with some role models,

to blow that test out of the water and confound all the study results?

(All of the above are techniques to combat stereotype threat that have been studied and found somewhat to very effective.)

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#87
post #46
post #21

I'm a man and I really dislike competitive aspects of society. I mean if I'm playing a game and it's for fun, I'm okay with it, as long as everyone play to play, not play to win. If I'm literally competing to earn a living, or if it ends up in praising winners and blaming losers, it won't be enjoyable, and I'd rather not play at all. Having humility also means that when you win, you also congratulate losers for playi…

But we are a society based on competition and winners and losers (loser in the sense you lost this particular competition) from birth on. Ignoring that is putting yourself at a disadvantage. I think it is important to have competition early and often in life because learning how to win and lose is an important life lesson. Getting lazy because of a win or quitting because of a loss will severely impact someone for th…

I don't think society is (or should) based solely on competition. Society is also built on mutually beneficial cooperation. Most modern countries give money to the poor so that they can spend it, which benefits society as a whole.

The idea of winners and losers comes from social darwinism, which is just another justification for people to keep wealth to themselves and not pay taxes "because it helps the weak".

The reality is that we truly don't know what motivates people to work or to innovate. That's why equality (not egalitarianism) is important.

> Getting lazy because of a win or quitting because of a loss will severely impact someone for their entire life.

Well if you look into society, that happens all the time. And even when it doesn't happen, people still put social filters on each others because of that belief. It's becoming a club of people which believe in "strong motivation".

> I think it is important to have competition early and often in life because learning how to win and lose is an important life lesson.

What kind of life lesson is that ? On what sort philosophy does it stand on? That sounds like a motivational religion.

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#88
post #21

I'm a man and I really dislike competitive aspects of society. I mean if I'm playing a game and it's for fun, I'm okay with it, as long as everyone play to play, not play to win. If I'm literally competing to earn a living, or if it ends up in praising winners and blaming losers, it won't be enjoyable, and I'd rather not play at all. Having humility also means that when you win, you also congratulate losers for playi…

Like or dislike, you would be the first to die in 99% of societies, human or otherwise. This may get downvoted but don't shoot the messenger. You can't "hate" something that just "is".

> You can't "hate" something that just "is".

You can, and you should. Civilization itself is based on the idea that what "just is" can be utterly fucked up and should be fixed.

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#89
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sex is the biology; Gender is the identity. Discrimations are based on gender, not sex. Women are told to wear pink dresses because of how our society see women (female gender), not because they have a vagina (female sex).

> Sex is the biology; Gender is the identity That's only a very recent distinction, and still a contentious one. According to Merriam-Webster ( http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender ) and the OED ( http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/english/gend... ), it's far from clear.

Based on what the dictionary says? The idea that gender and sex mean two different things isn't contentious amongst the people who study the phenomenon academically.

Re: Told reading tests are a game, boys score higher

#90
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how I got through undergrad and grad school. I framed every class and assignment as a competition me vs. the teacher and/or me vs. the other students.

Which seems really weird to me - education isn't a competition it's a collaboration with the teacher and the other students. This mindset seems harmful to me as I see it playing out with my kids "teacher X set this homework and will tell me off if I don't do it" rather than "teacher X set this homework and I'll not understand the subject as well if I don't do it". The kids think the homework is "for the teacher" rath…

You've totally missed the point.

It's not about what education is or is not, it's that the male brain, for whatever reason, is highly motivated by competition.

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