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A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

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Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#81

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

nihonde wrote: post #56
amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

I'd like to think that if you've got a civilization that people feel is worth keeping, the "dirty" jobs become a shared responsibility.

Low-skilled dirty jobs should either be automated, or they should be treated like taxation.

Everyone, without exception, has to pitch in and do them - to a reasonable standard, with doubled time for slacking, and serious punishments for avoidance - for [very small number of days a year].

If that sounds authoritarian, consider that's how work already functions for most people - except they're compelled to do it all the time, not just for [very small number of days].

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#82

Post by empressplay »

panic wrote: post #66
empressplay wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a good point. Ultimately all costs get passed on to the consumer -- so where does it end?

As costs go up, consumers buy less. There's a certain price which maximizes profit: that's where it ends.

Exactly. I have 5 apples. There are 5 people willing to pay at least $2 for them, so I sell them for $2. That's basic economics.

With a basic income, now most of these people have more money. So I can charge $3 per apple, and even if I only sell 4 of them I still make $2 more than I made before. I eat the last apple myself, and the person who only has the basic income doesn't get an apple at all.

I think universal welfare makes more sense.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#83

Post by notahacker »

cmdli wrote: post #43

From the $1 trillon stated in the article, spread across 300 million people, each person would get around $3000 a year. That honestly doesn't seem like it would help a lot, considering it would replace current welfare systems. The Swiss proposal of around $2600 a month, implemented in the US, would cost nearly $10 trillion a year which doesn't really seem feasible. I don't think the problem with basic income is an id…

Of course, when you do introduce actual numbers and note that poor people looking for work generally get more than $3000 per year in benefits, and early retirees and stay-at-home spouses generally don't, arguments against a proposal that would in practice take away from the former class of people and give to the latter become a profoundly ideological argument.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#84

Post by towlejunior »

gjm11 wrote: post #57
idiot99 wrote: post #38

There isn't huge support. Step out of the bubble... It's just the new generation of kids flirting with communism.

I think you may not have it perfectly clear in your mind what "communism" means.

Truly, the most predictable of all replies.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#85

Post by thiagoperes »

amelius wrote: post #5

I'm still wondering about one thing: if everybody has a basic income, then who will be doing the dirty jobs like collecting our waste? Will the price for waste collecting go up? And will there then be a kind of economic "inversion", where the intellectual people prefer to work on interesting stuff at the expense of money, while the "non-intellectual" (need a better word here) people will make all the money doing the…

First of all, no job should be considered dirty.

Second, if you go to places like Netherlands, Norway and Japan you'll see that it's not about money. Higher education prepares workers to do more complex, more efficient and more productive jobs.

Also, the society is more conscious about not having someone to do stupid things for them like collecting their trays after they eat at the McDonadls, this is YOUR responsibility as a member of a society, to look for others as well.

So in Amsterdam for example, street cleaning and trash collection are done with specialized vehicles. In Denmark, subways are autonomous.

I like to believe that as you increase education and income, the people that would be considered "dumb" in an very unequal society will spend their time developing technologies to automate tasks no one likes to perform and increase productivity.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#86

Post by toyg »

_Understated_ wrote: post #59
pjc50 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Child benefit is almost-universal. It was completely universal until a conservative government started means-testing it on the parents.

It's crazy. I absolutely don't need it but for some reason I qualify.

In UK? You always qualify, but you'll have to pay it all back if your income goes over a threshold. In its current form, it's basically an interest-free loan for 12 months.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#87

Post by richmarr »

aub3bhat wrote: post #3

I think the reason for huge support behind Basic Income is failure of government in efficient allocation of its resources. The current generation with its experience with public education, spending on unnecessary wars and other poorly run government programs no longer trusts government to effectively deliver services. Thus Basic Income seems like a natural solution. I honestly would prefer a smaller government that r…

> I think the reason for huge support behind Basic Income is failure of government in efficient allocation of its resources.

Basic Income is interesting because (a) it removes the requirements for administration of social security and policing of fraud, and (b) because some people think increased automation/AI will create increased unemployment so a different approach would be beneficial.

I'm not aware of evidence to support a view that poor implementation of particular social security programs is a driver.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#88

Post by icen »

toyg wrote: post #79
microtonal wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any moral justification for a software engineer earning more than someone collecting waste [1]. In general I agree. However, besides education costs (I have quite many friends who have a sizeable loan), software engineers also enter the workforce quite a bit later. E.g., taking Netherlands as an example: - Waste collector: age 12-16 VMBO - Software engineer: age 12-18 VWO, age 18-23 BA+MA university Also,…

In the brave new world of guaranteed income, why would you need a pension?

The same reason you have pensions now, despite guaranteed state pensions. Whilst $10K is probably liveable, in some places, if you own a house, it's likely not going to be terribly comfortable.

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#89

Post by _Understated_ »

yks wrote: post #67
_Understated_ wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't read into it too much at the moment as it's still a bit of a pipe-dream just now although it's looking more likely to change but I sit on the fence at this time (with a lean towards "no"). I don't see that happening to be honest but I do see something worse... Won't the price of everything go up for those that don't currently need the welfare system? Is this a sort of stealth tax increase on the middle clas…

I think that is the point, there will be too many people "that can't work" due to tech innovations. It all makes sense if you think about welfare not as "these slouches are rewarded for the laziness" but as a price you pay so that unemployed people are not forced into violent property expropriation from you. When large swaths of population don't have an access to money-making jobs, it significantly affects middle cla…

I don't think anyone wants a Sci-Fi dystopia: It doesn't benefit anyone.

Government should provide every citizen with basics should they falter: Food, clothing, shelter, education etc. I absolutely believe that is a basic human right.

What I don't want is to fund anything other than a safety net: Welfare should be a helping hand to get you back on your feet or to give you a start - Nothing more.

It should also come with an expiry date!

Re: A Basic Income Should Be the Next Big Thing

#90

Post by pjc50 »

_Understated_ wrote: post #59
pjc50 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Child benefit is almost-universal. It was completely universal until a conservative government started means-testing it on the parents.

It's crazy. I absolutely don't need it but for some reason I qualify.

It's not really for you - it is child benefit, after all. Think of it as basic income for kids, to keep them clothed and out of the factories.

I'm in favour of bringing back the Education Maintenance Allowance, and making it very slightly performance-related.

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