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The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

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Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#81
post #9

There is a large group of people on the internet who never let the Microsoft of the 90s go. How does every single one of their business decisions get linked to some nefarious goal? The author doesn't even know what it could be, BUT DON'T FORGET! This company tried to patent everything decades ago! Don't forget they're not bringing bash to Windows out of the goodness in their hearts!

Microsoft was also fined $2 billion dollars by the EU in 2004 for anti-trust violations so it's not just the 1990s. In addition, Microsoft was under US Federal oversight until 2011, but then had it extended another two years for failure to comply with the original court order. So let's not forget that.

The EU fined Microsoft for bundling the Windows Media Player, and forced it provide a version of Windows without the Media Player. Nobody bought it, so apart from providing the EU with some cash, it was completely irrelevant.

It was also characteristic of anti-trust suits in general. They are much less about whether you committed a crime, and more about whether what you did can be redefined as a crime many years later.

The DoJ supervision was extended over the readability of Microsoft's enforced documentation of communications protocols, which it was ordered to rewrite.

In her ruling, Kollar-Kotelly blamed Microsoft. "Although the technical documentation project is complex and novel, it is clear, at least to the Court, that Microsoft is culpable for this inexcusable delay," she wrote.

But she also wrote that the company had been "overwhelmingly cooperative" in the years after the antitrust settlement, and that this latest extension should not be viewed as a sanction. http://www.pcworld.com/article/142004/article.html

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#82

I wonder what Ballmer thinks, after all he was the one who called Linux a "cancer".

I realize you are likely being rhetorical, but in case you aren't, Ballmer recently said that Linux is not a threat, and likely has not been a threat, even if he thinks that Microsoft did what it needed to do to survive at the time he called Linux a "cancer". [1]

More importantly, Ballmer was not wrong in saying that Microsoft's focus as a company has been and should always be "Developers, Developers, Developers" and everything about this Ubuntu on Windows effort is for Developers.

[1] http://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-ballmer-linux-id...

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Just no. GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing. For another, by bringing a compatibility layer for the Linux kernel they have opened the door to much more than just GNU, and it remains incredibly reductivist to claim that that's all the Linux kernel does. You can use the Linux kernel (or this linux-compatible layer) to use a GNU system or a completely non-GNU system if you so…

You are wrong in so many ways. First of all, you are confusing "Microsoft bringing GNU to Windows" with "this is the first time GNU is brought to Windows." Then you go on to make it seem like if the GNU/Linux debate is just the craziness of some guy called RMS: wrong, many people support this distinction. Then you go off-topic talking about why GNU hurd is a mess. None of this contributes to the key topic here: Micro…

... as discussed extensively on Hacker News on its own page, including threads such as https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11459025 .

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Just no. GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing. For another, by bringing a compatibility layer for the Linux kernel they have opened the door to much more than just GNU, and it remains incredibly reductivist to claim that that's all the Linux kernel does. You can use the Linux kernel (or this linux-compatible layer) to use a GNU system or a completely non-GNU system if you so…

You are wrong in so many ways. First of all, you are confusing "Microsoft bringing GNU to Windows" with "this is the first time GNU is brought to Windows." Then you go on to make it seem like if the GNU/Linux debate is just the craziness of some guy called RMS: wrong, many people support this distinction. Then you go off-topic talking about why GNU hurd is a mess. None of this contributes to the key topic here: Micro…

> many people support this distinction

Really? Maybe I travel in the wrong circles, but most of the time this comes up most people just roll their eyes.

Also, that blog post is terrible, and highlights why the FSF fails so miserably at it's mission. Referring to Windows as "freedom-denying, user-controlling, surveillance system" ignores the fact that most people don't care because it works.

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong in so many ways. First of all, you are confusing "Microsoft bringing GNU to Windows" with "this is the first time GNU is brought to Windows." Then you go on to make it seem like if the GNU/Linux debate is just the craziness of some guy called RMS: wrong, many people support this distinction. Then you go off-topic talking about why GNU hurd is a mess. None of this contributes to the key topic here: Micro…

> many people support this distinction Really? Maybe I travel in the wrong circles, but most of the time this comes up most people just roll their eyes. Also, that blog post is terrible, and highlights why the FSF fails so miserably at it's mission. Referring to Windows as "freedom-denying, user-controlling, surveillance system" ignores the fact that most people don't care because it works.

again, you only seem to want to discuss the off-topic subject related to GNU and the FSF positions in general. the thing is, no matter what your position on the GNU/Linux debate is, it doesnt change the fact microsoft brought GNU to windows and not Linux, nor ubuntu. It's just a fact, not an opinion.

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#86

GNU is like Leonardo DiCaprio few years ago; never getting the Oscar. Microsoft did not bring Linux to Windows, it brought GNU. Linux is a kernel and there is not even a single bit of it in what microsoft brought to windows. It's technically GNU/Windows.

No. Just no. GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing. For another, by bringing a compatibility layer for the Linux kernel they have opened the door to much more than just GNU, and it remains incredibly reductivist to claim that that's all the Linux kernel does. You can use the Linux kernel (or this linux-compatible layer) to use a GNU system or a completely non-GNU system if you so…

> GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing

This is a legitimate question, since I am not a Windows user: has it really? Or are you referring to GNU software[0], which is not what we are referring to when we say GNU is a fully free Unix replacement; GNU software is only a part of that.[1]

[0]: https://gnu.org/software/

[1]: https://gnu.org/gnu/gnu.html

> For another, by bringing a compatibility layer for the Linux kernel they have opened the door to much more than just GNU, and it remains incredibly reductivist to claim that that's all the Linux kernel does. You can use the Linux kernel (or this linux-compatible layer) to use a GNU system or a completely non-GNU system if you so choose.

Sure they have. But that's not what the conversation is focused on: it's focused on being able to use GNU Bash and all the other Unix (mostly GNU) utilities that hackers are used to using.

> And the reason it's not almost finished is because the GNU project considers the kernel unimportant

Linux completed a major missing piece of GNU, which we refer to as GNU/Linux.[2]

[2]: https://gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html

Specifically:

"Once Torvalds freed Linux in 1992, it fit into the last major gap in the GNU system. People could then combine Linux with the GNU system to make a complete free system — a version of the GNU system which also contained Linux. The GNU/Linux system, in other words."[2]

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#87

GNU is like Leonardo DiCaprio few years ago; never getting the Oscar. Microsoft did not bring Linux to Windows, it brought GNU. Linux is a kernel and there is not even a single bit of it in what microsoft brought to windows. It's technically GNU/Windows.

First, the whole GNU/Linux "debate" is nothing more than RMS's ideology getting in the way. Linux refers to a class of operating systems that are mostly POSIX compliant. The fact that the GNU project has implemented a lot of the tools used in most distribution does not mean is has the right to lay claim to the title anymore than the Apache Foundation or Python Software Foundation. Second, the GNU project will never g…

> The fact that the GNU project has implemented a lot of the tools used in most distribution does not mean is has the right to lay claim to the title anymore than the Apache Foundation or Python Software Foundation.

GNU is a fully free Unix replacement---an operating system; it is more than a bunch of GNU software:

https://gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Just no. GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing. For another, by bringing a compatibility layer for the Linux kernel they have opened the door to much more than just GNU, and it remains incredibly reductivist to claim that that's all the Linux kernel does. You can use the Linux kernel (or this linux-compatible layer) to use a GNU system or a completely non-GNU system if you so…

> GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing This is a legitimate question, since I am not a Windows user: has it really? Or are you referring to GNU software[0], which is not what we are referring to when we say GNU is a fully free Unix replacement; GNU software is only a part of that.[1] [0]: https://gnu.org/software/ [1]: https://gnu.org/gnu/gnu.html > For another, by bringing a com…

> This is a legitimate question, since I am not a Windows user: has it really? Or are you referring to GNU software[0], which is not what we are referring to when we say GNU is a fully free Unix replacement; GNU software is only a part of that.[1]

As far as I can tell this subsystem does nothing that cygwin hasn't done in terms of 'bringing gnu to windows' since 1995, except that it does it technically better and allows for you to use software that does not depend on already ported components without recompilation. This means, for example, that you can use a libc other than glibc without porting that libc to windows first (ie. you could use musl, which is absolutely not part of the gnu system and even implements its own dynamic linker). You couldn't do that with cygwin. At least not trivially.

> Sure they have. But that's not what the conversation is focused on: it's focused on being able to use GNU Bash and all the other Unix (mostly GNU) utilities that hackers are used to using.

Even if I concede that GNU constitutes a 'system' in the way that RMS insists (which I don't, at all. His claims are political, not technical, imo), I would not agree that using this layer constitutes using that system for precisely this reason. Using bash or even gcc is not sufficient to consider a system 'gnu', even by RMS' own statements, else OSX and the other BSD systems would be gnu systems as well. For the most part, use of "bash on windows" is literally just that. You run bash and it exists in a space that is like but not exactly the same as linux, but that part is largely artifice. You don't even get a complete /proc filesystem.

[Note: Considering I am literally referring to those RMS screeds in my posts, I'd appreciate it if you at least pretended to believe I've read them.]

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong in so many ways. First of all, you are confusing "Microsoft bringing GNU to Windows" with "this is the first time GNU is brought to Windows." Then you go on to make it seem like if the GNU/Linux debate is just the craziness of some guy called RMS: wrong, many people support this distinction. Then you go off-topic talking about why GNU hurd is a mess. None of this contributes to the key topic here: Micro…

> many people support this distinction Really? Maybe I travel in the wrong circles, but most of the time this comes up most people just roll their eyes. Also, that blog post is terrible, and highlights why the FSF fails so miserably at it's mission. Referring to Windows as "freedom-denying, user-controlling, surveillance system" ignores the fact that most people don't care because it works.

> Also, that blog post is terrible, and highlights why the FSF fails so miserably at it's mission. Referring to Windows as "freedom-denying, user-controlling, surveillance system" ignores the fact that most people don't care because it works.

These users do not value freedom. And that's their right, however much we disagree with it.

It doesn't make those statements false, and doesn't change the situation. I wrote that article to focus on software freedom, its purpose, and GNU.

We don't ignore the fact that "most people don't care because it works"; that doesn't make sense, because that works against our ideals.

Re: The truth comes out: Microsoft needs Linux

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GNU on Windows has existed for a long time in several forms, for one thing This is a legitimate question, since I am not a Windows user: has it really? Or are you referring to GNU software[0], which is not what we are referring to when we say GNU is a fully free Unix replacement; GNU software is only a part of that.[1] [0]: https://gnu.org/software/ [1]: https://gnu.org/gnu/gnu.html > For another, by bringing a com…

> This is a legitimate question, since I am not a Windows user: has it really? Or are you referring to GNU software[0], which is not what we are referring to when we say GNU is a fully free Unix replacement; GNU software is only a part of that.[1] As far as I can tell this subsystem does nothing that cygwin hasn't done in terms of 'bringing gnu to windows' since 1995, except that it does it technically better and all…

> Even if I concede that GNU constitutes a 'system' in the way that RMS insists

Remember: back in the day, there was no way to run a free Unix-like operating system. GNU provided a way, and nothing else existed at the time, though BSD also emerged as free.

The distros that followed are derivatives of GNU. Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian GNU/Linux, which actually recognizes this fact.

> sing bash or even gcc is not sufficient to consider a system 'gnu', even by RMS' own statements

The article mentioned Shuttleworth describing an "Ubuntu environment"; this seems to imply more far-reaching goals.

I can't say what the result will be. I hope that others will explain it to me, or that there are many useful articles on the topic, because I can only watch and listen to what others are doing.

> [Note: I have read those links many times, you can stop linking to them in every level of this conversation you engage in now, I think]

I link to them in many threads because they will not otherwise be seen by the person I'm responding to.

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