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Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

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Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#81

Post by toothcomb »

mpk wrote: post #12

As far as I'm concerned this is just another piece of opinion put online by a programmer. That's not a bad thing - putting things out there and talking about them is integral to the programming profession as a whole. Look at the body of writing work out there written by programmers that's considered 'classic' already. Never mind that most of the discussion is usually subjective, highly opinionated, often misinformed…

Why do people comment? Perhaps it's because they can. People can say what they like. But I still have to filter it. And that wastes my time.

I like threads and tree like comments as it can be interesting to see the ideas and feedback at play. But sometimes I think it would be far better if the comments remained completely on topic.

The problem is good jeurnalism is inherently difficult. I resist writing blog posts because I'd spend too long on a post. As a teacher I'd spend a day at least on a hand out. And a post requires listening to feedback and fine tuning it. That's great if you have an informed receptive audience.

If I do ever bother with a blog, I think I'd ask for my desired feedback. I'd like users to submit links to relavant associated content.

I do enjoy a 'good' article about programming, I specifically like to hear about people's mistakes.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#82

Post by cookiecaper »

pg wrote: post #67
tsally wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you just have the YC alumni ban or temp ban people from HN when they post nasty comments? Seems like you accomplish two goals: (1) You don't have to read nasty comments about your writing and (2) you help slow the decline of HN. If it's a site wide policy and someone other than you is doing it, you'll probably be able to avoid accusations of censorship. Of course, that only works if the comment falls into the o…

Actually what I've been thinking of doing is have the users do that, by flagging comments for incivility. I haven't decided yet exactly what to do, but I'm ready to try something, because it is a sitewide problem. As we get more users, I'm seeing more comments that are nasty or fluff (or both).

I think that's a great idea. Most sites don't go nearly far enough to maintain decorum or civility, in my opinion. Acerbic discourse makes the communities inaccessible and scary, and usually results in site-wide bullying by the holders of the majority viewpoint.

I strongly encourage strict civility enforcement. I'm looking forward to its implementation, especially since so few places do it. Reddit constantly ostracizes and mocks its users whose beliefs may differ from its mainstream users; for instance, if you look at /r/christianity, many threads are eventually invaded by /r/atheist, and they upvote comments like "There is no god so don't worry about it", and downvote all of the serious responses that a peruser of /r/christianity would want to see. They leave abusive comments on the responses by Christians. The place is brimming with hostility for alternate viewpoints.

I see this kind of thing creeping into HN, too. I've noticed recently a large increase in the number of unworthily downvoted comments, and end up upvoting these to increase their scores though I otherwise wouldn't have done so. It seems to me that people here are beginning to fall into the same thought process that seems to eventually take over every "social news" site, where users with differing beliefs or opinions, no matter how articulately or thought-provokingly expressed, are oppressed by the tyranny of the mob.

So, please, I implore you to keep incivility off of HN to whatever extent possible. Strict moderation is key, imo. Let the naysayers say on; do what's needed to preserve the utility and pleasantness of the community. There are plenty of places online for the abuser and flamer to find refuge; let HN be a beacon of intelligence, helpfulness, and civility. It's especially needed among tech/programming communities.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#83

Post by blubb »

k-zed wrote: post #75

Sorry, Joel Spolsky has been fantastically, offensively wrong often. Significantly often. Attracting negative attention should be considered normal.

Fantastically, offensively wrong? Care to give an example? I think a lot of the "he's wrong" reactions stem from knee-jerk reactions. People often miss the point that what he's writing about comes form his own experience. It might not be universally true, but he will still have valid points worthy of consideration.

Then again, people writing angry comments are rarely the kind of people who will take the time to reflect on what they read.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#84

Post by blubb »

jrockway wrote: post #18
Scriptor wrote: post #3

I'd say it's not worthwhile to write about programming if people already have high expectations for you. Spolsky is definitely well-known and some people probably view him as somewhat full of himself, so they like to pick out anything that might hurt his image. For the average joe schmoe programmer, people don't have such expectations, so there is far less negative reaction. Also, personality does play a huge role. S…

It's worth noting that Spolsky writes about programmers, not programming. Everything he says is opinion, and as a result, it tends to spawn a lot of critical comments. ("Your employer hates you if you don't have an Aeron chair." Maybe, maybe not.) Writing about programming -- techniques, thought processes, libraries, and code -- is highly valuable, at least in my opinion.

He's actually written quite a bit about programming, but over the years he's (naturally) shifted to writing more about the business of software development and how to run a software business. He's clearly opinionated, but his opinions are still valuable.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#85

Post by radu_floricica »

pg wrote: post #64
philk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The correct solution is just to ignore them. Sure, they're saying nasty things about you, but no-one's saying anything about them at all.

It's hard to leave a mischaracterization of your ideas unanswered on a forum where people know you participate. I don't worry what people say about me on other sites, because I don't even know what they're saying. But here I do know, and everyone knows I know. Which means in effect someone can call me out here, by phrasing a comment in such a way that if I don't respond it seems like it's because I have no response t…

> by phrasing a comment in such a way that if I don't respond it seems like it's because I have no response to make

I dare say not many people here would fall for that, and you shouldn't really care about those who do. Most are still surprised you take the time to answer as much as you do.

I'd say the problems with points are different though. From the way my comments are voted recently I noticed three things:

- the upvoted comments are those which fit the common opinion, and upvoting them is used to express it.

- the ones I honestly considered good and original stay at 1-2. I have absolutely no idea if they made an impact whatsoever.

- from the way scores fluctuate I'm guessing some amount of downvoting

Overall I tend to believe that HN is more and more aggregating _opinions_ instead of _ideas_.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#86

Post by edw519 »

pg wrote: post #64
philk wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The correct solution is just to ignore them. Sure, they're saying nasty things about you, but no-one's saying anything about them at all.

It's hard to leave a mischaracterization of your ideas unanswered on a forum where people know you participate. I don't worry what people say about me on other sites, because I don't even know what they're saying. But here I do know, and everyone knows I know. Which means in effect someone can call me out here, by phrasing a comment in such a way that if I don't respond it seems like it's because I have no response t…

It's hard to leave a mischaracterization of your ideas unanswered on a forum where people know you participate.

Yes it is. And here's something I learned by accident...

Many times I have been challenged by something I said. Often a great point, but just as often something totally illogical. I always felt compelled to engage immediately or else I'd look like I was acquiescing to the other.

Then a strange thing happened. I got so busy that I could only visit a few times per day. So when I returned to a thread I had commented in, I was challenged, and others had responded instead of me. And their responses were often much better than mine would have been.

So now that's my default. I let others respond for me simply because I'm not here. And I've been very pleasantly surprised. For every jerk, there are 10 people ready to downvote or comment.

There's a natural tendency to stick up for yourself, so it's tough to let it go and give others a chance to do it for you. But give it a try anyway. Have faith in this community. When you're too busy to respond, we've got your back.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#87

Post by Groxx »

WalterBright wrote: post #5

Doesn't that just come with the territory? If you're successful with your opinions, people will argue with you.

I think it comes with the internet. Programmers are just "worse" because they look for flaws and want to fix them, rather than being sheeple.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#88

Post by ytinas »

rms wrote: post #59
pg wrote: post #41

I think it's just as well not to allow comments on one's site. If someone wants to say something about something you've written, they can say it on their own blog or on Twitter. When it's something of theirs they're writing on instead of something of yours, they think twice before being jerks: most people won't create a whole blog post just to make a trollish comment, and someone whose Twitter stream is a series of n…

What would the consequences be if you dramatically amped up the censorship here? Certainly it would improve discourse at the expense of inspiring lots of hatred...

You think doing a lot of censorship would improve discourse? What do you mean? Just remove snarky comments? Fine, but those get strongly down voted anyway. Comments someone in charge doesn't agree with? Then it isn't discourse.

EDIT: I realize your comment was in response to PG's, but what is considered a "censor-able" comment? I've seen some discourse on here where someone legitimately called PG out. As I recall, the person turned out to be wrong but they weren't trolling (at least not at first) even though they were accused of it from the start. Should this have been censored?

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#89

Post by marltod »

pg wrote: post #67
tsally wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't you just have the YC alumni ban or temp ban people from HN when they post nasty comments? Seems like you accomplish two goals: (1) You don't have to read nasty comments about your writing and (2) you help slow the decline of HN. If it's a site wide policy and someone other than you is doing it, you'll probably be able to avoid accusations of censorship. Of course, that only works if the comment falls into the o…

Actually what I've been thinking of doing is have the users do that, by flagging comments for incivility. I haven't decided yet exactly what to do, but I'm ready to try something, because it is a sitewide problem. As we get more users, I'm seeing more comments that are nasty or fluff (or both).

On Digg I have noticed that the top rated comments are pretty good. There are a few top comments that are obvious rebuttals to trolls but the original troll comments are not in the top comments. I would rather not see the troll or the rebuttal comment, but I still want people to get credit for calling out the troll.

Re: Why I don't write about programming and why it's not really worthwhile to do so

#90

Post by JoeAltmaier »

_delirium wrote: post #22

Maybe it's relative to what other audiences you also encounter, but I haven't found things too bad in the programming blogosphere. Sure, there are jerks, but there are jerks everywhere. My day-job is in academia, and there are a lot of jerks at academic conferences. You're more likely to get someone furious that you're intruding on their area, or critical that you aren't using their preferred methodology or citing th…

This YC thread actually has a lot in common with those nasty programmer-readers. Look at all the personal insults, broad generalizations etc. I guess programmer-readers are everywhere.
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