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Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

nytimes.com

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Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#81

Post by tim333 »

aurora72 wrote: post #67
wobbleblob wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is the Turkish Putin. I find it worrying. Turkey seemed to be such a success until a few years ago. A booming, increasingly western economy, seeming stability. Somehow you expect dictatorship to come with a revolution, but it seems it can slowly creep up on you. All it seems to take is a strong, popular leader. People think they like strong, popular leaders, but I find them a threat to democracy. They tend to thin…

Putin does not take orders from America or EU, Erdogan does. Putin's got a PhD, Erdogan's got nothin and can't speak any English. So it's ridiculous comparing them two.

There are a lot of similarities though. Both trying to be president for life, having huge palaces, throwing reporters in jail, corrupt, somewhat popular at home and so on.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#82

Post by venomsnake »

tomp wrote: post #52
matt4077 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

For all intents and purposes, Turks are white (i.e. the same race as the rest of Europe). The issue, however, is religion. EU has enough problems as is with religion (less than the US, and less than it used to have, but still), but still people are wary. Although IIRC Turkey used to be less religious than it is now, under Erdogan.

It was always as religious. Just the army and the secular order it imposed prevented the religious people from rising trough the society ranks.

Which of course fueled Erdogan support ...

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#83

Post by nickik »

k-mcgrady wrote: post #50
antientropic wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We should count ourselves lucky Turkey didn't join the EU in 1995-2008. I'd rather have an authoritarian Turkey outside of the EU than inside. We have enough trouble with the likes of Orban and Kaczynski already. And I don't follow the arguments for Turkey joining. Yes, it may have enormous potential; but nobody would say Mexico should join the US just because it has potential.

>> "We should count ourselves lucky Turkey didn't join the EU in 1995-2008. I'd rather have an authoritarian Turkey outside of the EU than inside." On the other hand wouldn't they be subject to certain laws to prevent or reduce the authoritarianism if they were part of the EU?

The EU was designed with lots of hops that a country had to jump threw but because for political (even idiological reason) those things always gets ignored if they are in the way of the larger planes. Greece for example should never ever have been able to join the EU given the rules that existed and we can see how that turned out.

The EU simply has very little oversight of internal politcs of countries and because there is no way you can be kicked out, once you are in, you can do pretty much as you want. That is, as long as you don't need massiv amounts of financial aid.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#84

Post by jbmorgado »

cm3 wrote: post #61
thirdsun wrote: post #5

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

Keep in mind that Turkey has often and for long stretches been a buffer/ally between the west and middle and far east. Right before the French and English invaded Turkey in WW1, it was used as a friendly buffer state. So, it's not some place that can be ignored easily. The fear of Turks in Europe solidified after the defeat in Vienna and left a deep mark that predisposed the idea of Europe as a Christian club. Go loo…

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Turkey was the hearth of the Ottoman empire with whom most of Europe had been at intermittent war for centuries until it was dissolved already after WWI (in fact, because of the outcome of WWI).

They were certainly not a friend and the main historical current is that the rulers of Europe accepted the dangers of the existence of the very powerful Austo-Hungarian empire exactly so that they would act as a military barrier between the Ottoman empire and Europe, otherwise the other European kingdoms would never accept the Austro-Hungarians to have such power inside Europe.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#85

Post by erikb »

Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that?

I can't believe that he really expected Germany and/or German people to back down about such a topic.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#86

Post by whatok »

https://www.rt.com/usa/337782-erdogan-security-protest-washi...

Screaming “Terrorist Erdogan” and displaying homemade signs, a group of protesters are approached by members of the Turkish president’s security detail, who then proceed to comically yell and drown out the negative chants.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#87

Post by pluma »

tomp wrote: post #52
matt4077 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case, only bad choices). Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance changing their opi…

For all intents and purposes, Turks are white (i.e. the same race as the rest of Europe). The issue, however, is religion. EU has enough problems as is with religion (less than the US, and less than it used to have, but still), but still people are wary. Although IIRC Turkey used to be less religious than it is now, under Erdogan.

Racism in Germany is not the same as racism in the US or necessarily other parts of the EU.

"Südländer" ("people from Southern countries") are effectively treated as an ethnic group, although this includes Italians and Spaniards alongside Turks (but in some cases also Arabs and other non-"whites"). There's also the racist slur "Ölauge" ("oil-eye"), which while ostensibly about eye colour is typically used to refer to "Südländer"s.

There are also "Osteuropäer" ("Eastern Europeans"), which effectively refers to Slavs but also "Deutschrussen" (i.e. descendants of German settlers in Eastern Europe who migrated back to Germany recently but are culturally distinct from "native" Germans).

I do agree however that "racism" in Germany tends to be less about specific "foreign" ethnicities (as in the US) but more about nationality (or nationality of the parents/ancestors) -- there's no denying that well-adjusted black Germans face discrimination in Germany but so do less well-adjusted Italians. It's more of a blanket ethno-nationalism than the typical racism you hear about on the anglophone interwebs.

It's not really surprising if you think about the historical roots: while Germany has a colonial history and thus isn't a stranger to mistreating brown people, our history is overshadowed by the Third Reich and its ideals about nationalism and racial purity (blonde, blue-eyed "Aryans" being distinct from mere "whites"). The US OTOH had an entire civil war about slave ownership and even then carried on a long tradition of racial apartheid.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#88

Post by meo2 »

erikb wrote: post #85

Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that? I can't beli…

I'm not sure how closely you follow the Turkish news, but this is an everyday level of stupidity by Turkish government standards.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#89

Post by Htsthbjig »

cm3 wrote: post #61
thirdsun wrote: post #5

As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey. I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore them so easily?

Keep in mind that Turkey has often and for long stretches been a buffer/ally between the west and middle and far east. Right before the French and English invaded Turkey in WW1, it was used as a friendly buffer state. So, it's not some place that can be ignored easily. The fear of Turks in Europe solidified after the defeat in Vienna and left a deep mark that predisposed the idea of Europe as a Christian club. Go loo…

Go look around statues in Ankara or Istanbul to see what you mean?

Turkey was a Muslim Empire, or as you say, club. They took Christians and enslaved them or made them fought their wars with exclusive privileges only to Muslims.

Let's not forget history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

Christians were expelled from Turkey or simply exterminated not that long ago. There is people alive that remembers it. From 1 person in five being Christian to 2 in a hundred.

UK has almost no Christianity? Ohhh, dear, everything in UK is Christian. I have lived in UK and in a non Christian country(China, Japan or Korea)to know.

Re: Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect

#90

Post by _b8r0 »

erikb wrote: post #85

Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision? E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite strong. Something like that? I can't beli…

He really is dumb enough and believes his own hype enough to think that Germany will back down if he threatens certain things, such as ending cooperation on Syrian refugees.
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