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Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

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Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#81

Post by frogpelt »

wrong_variable wrote: post #35
crazy1van wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think his caveat of "barring negative impact on others" pretty much covers these cases.

> "barring negative impact on others" You think taking what little money poor people have from them via allowing them to spend it on lottery does not have social consequences ?

Different methods of governing can basically all boil down to a simple balance scale:

On one side you have the rights of the individual and on the other side you have the rights of the community.

Some people tend to lean the scale toward individual rights and others toward community rights.

Smaller government tends to handle the balance by staying out of the way until it's necessary that they step in. Bigger government tends to handle the balance by marking clear (or blurry) lines and moving them when necessary.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#82

Post by phil21 »

Amezarak wrote: post #69
timbowhite wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what depressing things it says about our society that we let people weep on the pavement because they've lost their house on a literal crapshoot. The freedom allowing people to make those types of decisions trumps that argument. Where would you draw the line and determine what we should "let" people do with their own possessions? So you would not let a person gamble their house on a crap shoot? How about their car?…

I think we could make a distinction between allowing people to make those types of decisions and actively enabling and encouraging those types of decisions. If you want to gamble your house away in a private bet, go for it, but the local government shouldn't move heaven and earth to get a casino built to enable thousands and thousands of people to make those decisions in the name of tax revenue. Similarly, I don't th…

I think you're tilting at windmills here. The type of people who think gambling should be legal and is entirely a personal decision are the type that would agree with you.

Only take it a step further. The state shouldn't move heaven and earth to get anything privately owned built. That it's a casino only makes something inherently bad even worse.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#83

Post by khedoros »

differentView wrote: post #78
ryandrake wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4) Is playing the lottery an expression of hopelessness for some people? They know that their $5 is never going to multiply to $10 (the way it might for a wealthier person), so it's easier to risk that $5 for a chance to win $5 million. I think this is key. Turning $5 into $10 is impossible. Turning $5MM into $10MM is inevitable. The Lottery is a band-aid to treat the symptom (hopelessness). Address the root cause,…

>Turning $5MM into $10MM is inevitable. What do you mean?

Larger sums of money are easier to invest in ways that will provide meaningful returns, and doubling your money is inevitable over the long term. In comparison, that $5 will probably turn into a meal or other short-term benefit.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#84

Post by ryandrake »

differentView wrote: post #78
ryandrake wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4) Is playing the lottery an expression of hopelessness for some people? They know that their $5 is never going to multiply to $10 (the way it might for a wealthier person), so it's easier to risk that $5 for a chance to win $5 million. I think this is key. Turning $5 into $10 is impossible. Turning $5MM into $10MM is inevitable. The Lottery is a band-aid to treat the symptom (hopelessness). Address the root cause,…

>Turning $5MM into $10MM is inevitable. What do you mean?

If you have only $5 in your pocket as this month's disposable income, there is no investment vehicle for turning that into $10. Besides putting it in a bank where it will lose value due to inflation, gambling may be the only non-zero investment opportunity available to you.

On the other hand, if you have $5MM in your pocket, there are tons of investment opportunities for you to choose from, from treasury bills to angel investing, limited only by your appetite for risk. You have an entire financial services industry that exists for the sole purpose of helping you turn that $5MM into $10MM.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#85

Post by liber8 »

ryandrake wrote: post #71
liber8 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"you could be sitting alone in a dark room with nothing but a lottery ticket in your hand and be perfectly satisfied with fantasies of winning" This is one of the biggest reasons I dislike the lottery, from a societal perspective: it satisfies people who would otherwise have an incentive to go out and create their own success. You can see this anytime the jackpots get big enough that non-players buy tickets. There is…

You act as though everyone has the opportunity "to go out and create their own success," which is less and less true the poorer you are.

Let's assume you're right, and that many poor people have no opportunity to better their situation. That doesn't change the fact that some people absolutely do have the opportunity to better their situation, but choose not to because their desire for a better future is satisfied by the fantasy of winning the lottery. The lottery acts as a drain in these cases, not only on the individuals who continue to stagnate, but to the rest of us who would benefit from those individuals contributions.

I'll also note that I fundamentally disagree with your statement. Everyone has an opportunity to create their own success. Obviously not everyone has the same kinds of opportunities or the same number of opportunities. Those of us with enough time to comment on Hacker News probably have dozens of opportunities PER DAY to create our own success, whereas a poor black kid from Baltimore may only have one, and it may require him to wake up at 4am to go to work or stay up till midnight to educate himself. But those opportunities still exist, even if you're poor.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#86

Post by runamok »

mikeash wrote: post #76
ryandrake wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4) Is playing the lottery an expression of hopelessness for some people? They know that their $5 is never going to multiply to $10 (the way it might for a wealthier person), so it's easier to risk that $5 for a chance to win $5 million. I think this is key. Turning $5 into $10 is impossible. Turning $5MM into $10MM is inevitable. The Lottery is a band-aid to treat the symptom (hopelessness). Address the root cause,…

I don't think this affects your overall point, but the lottery itself demonstrates that turning $5 million into $10 million isn't inevitable. Most big lottery winners end up broke again, if not worse, after not too much time. Obviously, the more typical sort of person with $5 million tends to do a better job with it.

If you have 7 or 8 years and drop it in a vanguard s&p index fund your odds are pretty good.

The $5 would be too small to even invest before getting eaten by fees.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#87

Post by gozur88 »

liber8 wrote: post #56
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #18

"When you play the lottery, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. But it's better than using drugs or alcohol because when you use drugs or alcohol, you always lose" - "American Movie" People who don't play the lottery are always so quick to dismiss it. They disregard how accessible it is - you don't need a next-gen console or flat-screen tv, just cash - as they disregard how independently fun it is - you could b…

"you could be sitting alone in a dark room with nothing but a lottery ticket in your hand and be perfectly satisfied with fantasies of winning" This is one of the biggest reasons I dislike the lottery, from a societal perspective: it satisfies people who would otherwise have an incentive to go out and create their own success. You can see this anytime the jackpots get big enough that non-players buy tickets. There is…

>This is one of the biggest reasons I dislike the lottery, from a societal perspective: it satisfies people who would otherwise have an incentive to go out and create their own success.

They could do that, but would they? They might just spend the money on beer or drugs.

Re: Lotteries: America's $70B Shame

#88

Post by gozur88 »

nostrebored wrote: post #37
calebm wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly what I came to say. I'm not a gambler, but the idea of making gambling illegal seems insane to me in "the land of the free".

Spend some more time around casinos. Watch your opinion change as you realize what depressing things it says about our society that we let people weep on the pavement because they've lost their house on a literal crapshoot. Spending a good bit of my formative years in Biloxi seriously changed my attitude around all of this.

I've spent a lot of time around casinos, and I've never seen any legitimate reason to restrict gambling. The government certainly has a role in making sure the games are as advertised, but you can't have liberty without allowing people to screw up.
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