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The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

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Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#81

Post by irahul »

The JS development landscape is in a state of flux, and it's overwhelming for someone not familiar with it.

I was just working on getting a react-redux TODO template ready and number of things I had to read up on was enormous. https://github.com/rahulkmr/react-redux-todo

I had to read up on react, then on redux, then on es2015/babel, then on browsrify, then on gulp, then on eslint, then on sourcemaps, then on flow, then on react-router...It was a lot of effort, but I am liking it so far. The important thing is we can build applications in ES2015 which is a better language than the browser's js implementation and still get to debug it on the browser(sourcemap and specific devtools). My impressions of react-redux so far is it makes implementing a TODO list harder, but it will be better suited for applications with lot of state.

True there are conflicting choices and advice, but I think all this will stabilize in a year or two and despite the naysayers, the future seems bright. And it's not a take-it-or-leave-it deal - if you are happy with Backbone, keep using it. You can choose to just integrate gulp,babel and browserify for es2015 goodness. You might not like react but like how redux does state management - just integrate that in your existing application.

Most of the tools are orthogonal to your framework choice. Use tern for completion and analysis, use eslint for linting, use browerify/webpack to pack your assets...

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#82

Post by madeofpalk »

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #78
madeofpalk wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you see a lot of jobs requiring React, or are fear becoming obsolete, then just learn React. It's very very simple - the API is like 5 functions, and the documentation takes like 20 minutes to read from start-to-end. Don't learn anything else - just learn plain vanilla-React. The site has a onepager.html 'blueprint' to work from. If people are getting anxious about this, its more than likely self-inflicted from tr…

It's not just React, there's a huge ecosystem developing around it that is undergoing constant churn - see react-router or babel for example. And then with Redux you have a whole subsystem around that - redux-form and sagas and react-redux-router (or is it react-router-redux?). Then we have the GraphQL/Relay train leaving the station. Oh, and I've not even touched testing tools yet, or webpack (a whole other ecosyste…

But you don't need to learn all of that! That's what I mean when I say self inflicted. If you feel the need to learn all this BS, no wonder you're feeling fatigued.

We just built and released a Very Big Project using React, Redux, and React-Router. Smooth sailing. Zero JS-Churn. No one had any issues being overwhelmed. We never went crazy and threw in every hot new library we heard about on Twitter.

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#83

Post by zeemonkee3 »

vmware505 wrote: post #22

I still dont understand this fatigue rant around JavaScript. Because I started to work with Ember.js 4 years ago, and it is the solution for everything. The framework evolved nicely and works perfectly. It was not a bet, it was serious choice which based on a real perspective and concept. Ember is matured and production ready for years now. You can focus on your product. So, as an Emberjs dev never felt that problem…

Right now I know of a company that needs to overhaul their front end. They don't have a lot of available developer resources and their core strength is backend (Python/Django). I'm sorely tempted to recommend Ember. Angular is in transition and the whole React circus would be overwhelming for them. Ember fits in very well with the Django philosophy and there are plugins to make them play nicely. Ember has a learning curve but it looks like it would pay off long-term.

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#84

Post by madeofpalk »

irahul wrote: post #81

The JS development landscape is in a state of flux, and it's overwhelming for someone not familiar with it. I was just working on getting a react-redux TODO template ready and number of things I had to read up on was enormous. https://github.com/rahulkmr/react-redux-todo I had to read up on react, then on redux, then on es2015/babel, then on browsrify, then on gulp, then on eslint, then on sourcemaps, then on flow, t…

Why have you added redux for such a small and simple project? What are you getting from react-router-redux - why do you feel the need to sync the the browser's URL into the data store?

You didn't 'have' to do any of these, especially for a project of this size. I can now understand why people might feel fatigued when they needlessly create overly complex solutions.

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#85

Post by zeemonkee3 »

madeofpalk wrote: post #82
zeemonkee3 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just React, there's a huge ecosystem developing around it that is undergoing constant churn - see react-router or babel for example. And then with Redux you have a whole subsystem around that - redux-form and sagas and react-redux-router (or is it react-router-redux?). Then we have the GraphQL/Relay train leaving the station. Oh, and I've not even touched testing tools yet, or webpack (a whole other ecosyste…

But you don't need to learn all of that! That's what I mean when I say self inflicted. If you feel the need to learn all this BS, no wonder you're feeling fatigued. We just built and released a Very Big Project using React, Redux, and React-Router. Smooth sailing. Zero JS-Churn. No one had any issues being overwhelmed. We never went crazy and threw in every hot new library we heard about on Twitter.

You're missing the point. You're talking about what you used for your project. I'm talking about learning skills so I can walk into an interview for a job that says "we need React developers". They may use any number of these things I mentioned, or are thinking about using them, and will bring them up. As a "React developer" I have to be aware of the ecosystem. So it's not just "learn an API with a few functions".

And, as I said, it matters not whether I learned these things on my own: to Get the Job you need to demonstrate real-world experience.

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#86

Post by madeofpalk »

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #85
madeofpalk wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you don't need to learn all of that! That's what I mean when I say self inflicted. If you feel the need to learn all this BS, no wonder you're feeling fatigued. We just built and released a Very Big Project using React, Redux, and React-Router. Smooth sailing. Zero JS-Churn. No one had any issues being overwhelmed. We never went crazy and threw in every hot new library we heard about on Twitter.

You're missing the point. You're talking about what you used for your project. I'm talking about learning skills so I can walk into an interview for a job that says "we need React developers". They may use any number of these things I mentioned, or are thinking about using them, and will bring them up. As a "React developer" I have to be aware of the ecosystem. So it's not just "learn an API with a few functions". An…

I strongly disagree with the idea that you need to know how to use react-saga or react-redux-router to walk into an interview that name drops React.

Like, it would be a huge plus from a candidate if they even knew the name GraphQL/Relay, but I wouldn't want to work somewhere that expected me to know it completely.

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#87

Post by jondubois »

Companies will never stop wanting better tools to build apps. The software industry is highly competitive - If tools didn't keep improving, established players (big companies) would have the upper hand. New tools allow increasingly small startups to compete against big companies - Being able to start fresh with the most cutting edge tools is a huge competitive advantage for startups.

I don't think progress will stop at React. Soon enough, we will have drag-and-drop web app builders - They will allow us to build web apps where all data will be live-bound in realtime. Adding new pages/functionality will be trivial.

Software developers won't stop until the tools become so convenient that they take over our jobs completely - We will be replaced with app designers and entrepreneurs.

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#88

Post by nfriedly »

zeemonkee3 wrote: post #78
madeofpalk wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you see a lot of jobs requiring React, or are fear becoming obsolete, then just learn React. It's very very simple - the API is like 5 functions, and the documentation takes like 20 minutes to read from start-to-end. Don't learn anything else - just learn plain vanilla-React. The site has a onepager.html 'blueprint' to work from. If people are getting anxious about this, its more than likely self-inflicted from tr…

It's not just React, there's a huge ecosystem developing around it that is undergoing constant churn - see react-router or babel for example. And then with Redux you have a whole subsystem around that - redux-form and sagas and react-redux-router (or is it react-router-redux?). Then we have the GraphQL/Relay train leaving the station. Oh, and I've not even touched testing tools yet, or webpack (a whole other ecosyste…

> It doesn't matter a bit for applying for a job.

Sure it does! When I interview people, I tend to give a fair amount of weight in their side projects, because it's something they were actually interested in.

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#89

Post by Shicholas »

This is why I use ember. It may not be the fastest or the greatest, but its more than good enough (what I can build, stability, longevity etc.) and it's opinionated to the point where I really don't have to think about all of these pain points.

Re: The Deep Roots of JavaScript Fatigue

#90

Post by amelius »

What I get most tired of is that all the tools nowadays seem to think they are at the center of their ecosystem, instead of doing things in the old "UNIX" style, where tools had clear I/O specs, and just worked well together.
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