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On asking job candidates to code

philcalcado.com

81–90 of 524 posts

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#81

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

I'm pretty sure this is in reference to the his project that he was wrapping up at his old job.

He is saying that even though he was working long hours at his current job, he was so enticed by this interview challenge that, even after a long and difficult day thinking about a (programming) problem, he couldn't keep it off of his mind on his train ride home.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#82
post #4

I really hate having to solve these kind of programming challenges. I've already sent you my CV, with references from former/current employers and co-workers. Call them up if you are worried that I'm lying on my résumé, don't waste my time by making me work for the chance of maybe getting a job as only payment. Doing multiple interviews already takes up enough of my time, seeing as I'm the one who has to commute to y…

Right with you buddy. I no longer accept coding challenges or even interviews that go over 30 min. I tell them my services are $150/hour. If you want me to do a 4-8 hour exercise for the privilege of interviewing further then make it worth my time...just like any other consulting gig I do.

I should add that no company has taken me up on my offer. I'm too busy with work to care anyway.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#83
post #56
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The time involved in these things really can add up... I was recently asked to do a take home challenge that took a couple of hours to hack together, followed by several hours of nailing down edge cases due to the nature of the task. Then the company scheduled a phone call during which I thought we'd discuss the design decisions I'd made while working on the task. Instead, the interviewer had never seen the code I se…

Often these things are scored and ranked separately. Your phone interviewer will likely have scored you on various things, the score from your coding challenge will be taken as well, then everyone will sit down and discuss how people did and rule people in/out.

The only purpose of a code challenge or whiteboard session is to get the candidate and the interviewer talking about code. This is the only signal that you really want out of these exercises.

To do both is wasteful, but if I did either and that _didn't result in a conversation about code_, I wouldn't continue with the interview process. Their processes are broken.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#84
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by probation periods? Something like... "Hi, I'd like to ask you to work for a very temporary contract with us so, if it doesn't work out, you have to scramble to find more work and maybe risk homelessness."

This is pretty standard in the UK. Your new full-time job is commonly effectively at-will for the first 3 months, and possibly more. See, e.g., http://www.jobsite.co.uk/worklife/probation-periods-19677/

As far as my experiences go, US companies (at least at the enterprise level) generally seem to have ~4 month probationary periods for new hires.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#85
post #57

> As brain-dead as I was after eight hours at my project, [..] Is giving out an 8+ hour programming project as part of the application process really considered good hiring practice? If you apply to five jobs, you're expected to spend an entire unpaid work week writing code that doesn't benefit anyone? If a company receives 20 applicants, their ideal candidate selection wastes a collective work month? I don't really…

(Speaking in personal capacity here.) There exists a continuum of hiring practices which place more or less burden upon candidates. I would encourage HNers with input into their company hiring practices to choose less burdensome approaches over more burdensome approaches, particularly when less burdensome approaches also yield additional signal about ability. A thing you can expect to be asked in 2016: you can expect…

>For some candidates, this will involve more than 16 hours on planes, a (minimally) overnight stay in a business hotel, and six solid hours of interviews in the course of an 8~10 hour day. This requires minimally 2~3 days of these candidates' lives.

... To put it mildly: it is not guaranteed that if you're flown out you will get an offer.

..., and you replace the onsite with even an excessively long project, that's a win. The project can be written at the candidate's own pace and schedules conveniently around their other obligations. They do not have to arrange child care, take off time from work, or make tradeoffs like "Do I do the project or do I attend a friend's wedding?"

All true but my observation is that the companies that put candidates through multi-day-out-of-town interview processes can afford to miss out on the candidates that can't do it. Tellingly, the type of companies like Google and Microsoft that put a lot of burden on candidates hire heavily from a pipeline of fresh college graduates. Not surprisingly, a lot of 22-year olds don't have existing jobs or kids they have to juggle to commit to intensive interview processes. Sure, they also interview older middle-aged candidates but the benchmark tolerance for hoop-jumping is set by the 22-year olds therefore you won't get sympathy from employers about disrupting your life to stay in the running. For those companies, even if they are flying you out, you're still in the "evaluation" stage and could be 50/50 accept/reject.

Contrast that with boutique consulting firms that hire from the 30+ age bracket (often by poaching other consulting firms' employees.) A lot of their candidates already have existing (lucrative) jobs. Most of their evaluation is done on multiple phone interviews. If the company decides to fly you to their headquarters to interview, you basically have the job unless you unzip your pants and urinate on the interviewer's desk. The onsite interview is not a technical screening but a personality sanity check. At that stage, you're 90/10 accept/reject.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#86
post #73

A startup in Berlin gave me a code challenge that would take at least 20 hours, I had even to deploy in specific version of the libraries, they give the datasets and etc. I was very suspicious of being an actual feature development. I've said I would only do that if they would pay me to. They answered that they feel very sorry for me because a lot of the candidates feel the coding challenge very challenging because t…

I've heard places that actually do that and I believe it's the smaller company (startups) that would actually go about doing such a thing than a large company

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#87
not sure why there is so much resistance here about doing an 8 hour test, I might be in the minority but for a traditional whiteboard interview I would spend a lot more than 8 hours revising algorithms and so on, and have a lot of stress due to whiteboard coding not being anything like real coding.

Being able to take a Sunday to work on a challenging problem in my own editor / computer / dev environment sounds great! I wish that all companies added in their job ads something like 'if you want to skip the whiteboard send us your solution to this problem together with your resume' where the problem is a representative problem of the type of work they do, then you spend the interview discussing your solution as opposed to playing algorithm-roulette.

It would also cut down the uncertainty when you see a job ad where they ask for all sorts of different languages / skills, if you have fun doing the coding test, it's likely you'll enjoy working there, and vice-versa (in which case you might decide not to even apply)

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#88
post #73

A startup in Berlin gave me a code challenge that would take at least 20 hours, I had even to deploy in specific version of the libraries, they give the datasets and etc. I was very suspicious of being an actual feature development. I've said I would only do that if they would pay me to. They answered that they feel very sorry for me because a lot of the candidates feel the coding challenge very challenging because t…

I had a pretty famous startup in Toronto decline a second interview because I flat out refused to do a take home test that probably would've been at least worth a day's exploration.

In comparison, a YC company (who eventually got acquired) actually responded very positively to my suggestion that I get paid to do the test they required, not dissimilar to bringing in a freelance contractor for a day.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#89
A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). During the phone-discussion after turning in the project, the mid 20-something lead developer couldn't find anything to nitpick (I could have) and even told me he thought I was a better programmer than him. The conversation went very well and I felt confident I would receive an offer.

Now, what do you suppose happened next? I never heard from them again and all of my attempts at communication were ignored. I'm starting to think my age is becoming a factor (mid 30s) -- and also these kids have no sense of respect and professional courtesy. I'd like to say this was an isolated incident, but that would be a lie.

Stupid me just spent his Saturday doing another such project, though at least this one presented a more interesting problem. I swear, if I find out I had my time wasted again I'm going into consulting. Or maybe I'll go to truck driving school. Or open a cafe. Screw this "employee" stuff.

The fact that so many employers treat candidates like this tells me that the whole "it's hard to find good developers" line is a lie.

Re: On asking job candidates to code

#90
I just instituted a coding assignment with our hiring (exceptions made for those with extensive github/similar open source contributions), and so far only have had three candidates do it, but I'm a fan.

Mine is crafted so a really competent developer could get it done in 30 minutes, and intermediate 2 hours and a junior probably not finish. I tell them to send what they have in after two hours that I'm as interested in seeing the structure and thought process than the final result. It seems much better than having someone do it at the office or one a whiteboard for accessing basic competence.

Yes it sucks, but after you get bit once or twice by hiring people who knew all the right words but can't actually produce something useful you get a lot more open to it. I'll gladly take the time to take you out to lunch to discuss the job and code assignment and give feedback afterwards, investing a couple of hours into finding your next job shouldn't be this huge ordeal and gives off a diva vibe I don't want in my organization anyway.

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