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In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

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Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#81

Post by Phrodo_00 »

kercker wrote: post #77
chenglou wrote: post #5

I mean, that's like asking whether marathon runners have a future now that we've got cars. Exercising one's brain/having pleasure through the game could be an end in itself, and is independent of how machines perform.

>"I mean, that's like asking whether marathon runners have a future now that we've got cars." I don't think they are the same things. Marathon is about the physical limit of human beings, while Go is about mental limit. Before there are cars, or trains, we all know we are not the fastest in the world. A rabbit can easily overrun an adult human. However, we never thought that a dog or a bird will beat us in a game lik…

Not really, speaking specifically about marathon, humans should rank pretty high in the list of the best marathon species. We're up there with horses and I guess wolves.

Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#83

Post by makapuf »

mirimir wrote: post #8

Maybe if they learn to collaborate with AI. Or eventually, get implants. As all serious professionals will need to do. That may seem far-fetched, but how many runners compete with bicyclists?

Well you don't see pro runners get bicycle implants (that would hurt)

Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#84

Post by nindalf »

grondilu wrote: post #61
chj wrote: post #60

I wouldn't write those professionals off so easily. People barely knows AlphaGo until now. Once they start learning about AlphaGo's behaviors, they may be able to come out with new tactics. No doubt it will be a collective effort from the Go community, no one can beat the machine alone.

It's true that humans should be allowed a rematch. And all professionals Go players could be playing in concert. Hell, Google should organize a "AlphaGo against the world" on internet.

Can't wait for Twitch Plays Go.

Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#85

Post by sytelus »

chenglou wrote: post #5

I mean, that's like asking whether marathon runners have a future now that we've got cars. Exercising one's brain/having pleasure through the game could be an end in itself, and is independent of how machines perform.

It's worth noting that human brain consuming barely 20 watts of power is competing against giant computing infrastructure gobbling up perhaps few 100 killowatts. It's like one player against the army of 5000 players. Many people write off this energy requirements as non-consequential but the fact is that our major technological bottleneck of 21st century is nothing BUT energy consumption. When we have machine that consumes 20 watts and does everything that human brain does, it would be a day for a new species.

Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#86

Post by mirimir »

makapuf wrote: post #83
mirimir wrote: post #8

Maybe if they learn to collaborate with AI. Or eventually, get implants. As all serious professionals will need to do. That may seem far-fetched, but how many runners compete with bicyclists?

Well you don't see pro runners get bicycle implants (that would hurt)

True. But people do get surrogate limbs.

Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#87

Post by oldmanjay »

conanbatt wrote: post #82
zhemao wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the age of Watson, does Jeopardy have a future?

Did Jeopardy ever really have a purpose?

Jeopardy has many purposes. It provides employment, entertainment, and a cultural touchstone, as well as a benchmark of our quest to replicate our nature. Relatively few things have more purpose.

Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#88

Post by bouvin »

yannyu wrote: post #72
conanbatt wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take it from someone that walked the path of becoming a professional Go player, being a professional and an amateur are completely different attitudes towards the game. Tic Tac Toe is solved, but can be fun to play when you are a kid. Amateur Go playing can still exist, but the goal of strength is more instilled in the path to pro-ship. This really suggests that going the path of being the strongest is no longer sens…

Anything that Go has to go through as a result of AlphaGo, Chess has already gone through with Stockfish and its predecessors (such as Deep Blue, though I realize it's not exactly the same). Is there a particular reason why a chess computer would be any more undefeatable than a Go computer? Even though Kasparov lost, Nakamura destroyed Rybka 10 years later. Now that we have a competitive Go AI, isn't it likely the ga…

Nakamura may have beaten Rybka, but even with Rybka at his side, he could not stand against a handicapped Stockfish (https://www.chess.com/news/stockfish-outlasts-nakamura-3634).

Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#89

Post by joesb »

conanbatt wrote: post #71
chenglou wrote: post #5

I mean, that's like asking whether marathon runners have a future now that we've got cars. Exercising one's brain/having pleasure through the game could be an end in itself, and is independent of how machines perform.

Take it from someone that walked the path of becoming a professional Go player, being a professional and an amateur are completely different attitudes towards the game. Tic Tac Toe is solved, but can be fun to play when you are a kid. Amateur Go playing can still exist, but the goal of strength is more instilled in the path to pro-ship. This really suggests that going the path of being the strongest is no longer sens…

Hardest heavy weight boxer is a lot weaker than machine. The fastest baseball pitcher cannot throw faster than a throwing machine.

Re: In the Age of Google DeepMind, Do the Young Go Prodigies of Asia Have a Future?

#90

Post by nightcracker »

conanbatt wrote: post #76
tbrake wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet in chess the Carlsens, Nakamuras, Caruanas, Svidlers etc of the world still compete while knowing they have no chance of beating StockFish running on a modern desktop. The super GMs of the world - and basically all of the chess loving public with them - seem to have acknowledged it and moved on; why would such a transition be impossible in Go?

It might happen, but I hope it doesn't. I cannot speak for Chess's mindset but as a Devoted Go Player, we are collectively trying to solve it, and so we have for centuries. We play Go to explore its universe and reach utmost understanding of the game(and a glimpse of ourselves). If we ever find(which eventually we shuold) the exact single pattern that is best for both players, and we solve the game, it becomes someth…

> Competing for the sake of competing is a petty goal.

This makes me much more angry than it probably should. Who are you to decide what is or what is not a petty goal? People will always do what they enjoy, and if they enjoy competition then that is what they will do. There is nothing wrong or petty about that.

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