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Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

gavinandresen.ninja

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Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#81

Post by fosco »

andy_ppp wrote: post #78

So far as I can tell as a complete outsider... Bitcoin developers and the bitcoin community (i.e. people trying to make bitcoin much larger) are not finding shared solutions for the future of the network. It's impossible to know (from the outside) who is right, but both sides are very very sure that they are in the right! Time to fork it and move on I think.

and have two things half as great?

No, similar to Abe lincoln bringing the entire union together splitting the country into a 'north' and 'south' would have disabled the progress that was made in the 100 years after.

trying to make everyone happy is not possible and in my opinion is one of the first steps towards failure.

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#82

Post by dwaltrip »

rsi_oww wrote: post #40
Vespasian wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply is demonstrating the parents issues with the discussion perfectly. Anyone not closely following the situtation(such as myself) just sees a enormously heated up discussion (I was reminded of [1]). Every party involved is accusing the others of spreading lies,misrepresenting the situation and trying to take control over the blockchain/bitcoin/protocol. Based on that, I have difficulties understanding and eva…

"The reports of Bitcoin's problems are greatly exaggerated". There is a small group who seem really good at spreading a message of "Bitcoin is about to collapse". They are doing this either because they control a lot of competing currency (Ethereum), or because they think it will help adoption of their Bitcoin fork. The reality is, 95% of Bitcoiners are very happy with the team working on the protocol, and the market…

Your 95% number is completely made up, and doesn't match what others are seeing. There are many posts in r/bitcoin that are pro-large-blocks/anti-Core with hundreds of upvotes.

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#83

Post by [deleted] »

rsi_oww wrote: post #40
Vespasian wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply is demonstrating the parents issues with the discussion perfectly. Anyone not closely following the situtation(such as myself) just sees a enormously heated up discussion (I was reminded of [1]). Every party involved is accusing the others of spreading lies,misrepresenting the situation and trying to take control over the blockchain/bitcoin/protocol. Based on that, I have difficulties understanding and eva…

"The reports of Bitcoin's problems are greatly exaggerated". There is a small group who seem really good at spreading a message of "Bitcoin is about to collapse". They are doing this either because they control a lot of competing currency (Ethereum), or because they think it will help adoption of their Bitcoin fork. The reality is, 95% of Bitcoiners are very happy with the team working on the protocol, and the market…

[deleted]

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#84

Post by mcguire »

maaku wrote: post #77
bhaak wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ruleset is certainly not unchangeable. If enough miners and full nodes install a different bitcoin implementation, having combined more than 51% of the hash rate of the network, the ruleset of the new majority is valid. That's how bitcoin reaches consensus and that's how Classic would activate (going for 75% and a grace period of a month, because otherwise you'd probably get chaos and the possibility of 2 distinc…

> If enough miners and full nodes install a different bitcoin implementation, having combined more than 51% of the hash rate of the network, the ruleset of the new majority is valid. No, that is a misunderstanding of how bitcoin works. If the miners activate a new ruleset, and if that change is not so very carefully constructed as to make the old rules a special case of the new rules (a soft-fork), then those miners…

No one except others using the new version of the software. If the majority decided to switch, the un-upgraded nodes would be cut off.

Choosing the version to run is a political and economic decision.

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#85

Post by riprowan »

mcguire wrote: post #79
riprowan wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They want to take over the bitcoin network with a fork, which will follow different rules A simple and clear understanding of which group is trying to distort Bitcoin from its mission can be had by simply reading this informative white paper: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf I would encourage everyone following this discussion to start by reading the foundation document, and then comparing the design and goals of th…

Thanks for this. For those of us not following closely, that paper explains the issue clearly. From my reading, the protocol is supposed to adjust the difficulty of the block chain proof of work to provide a certain number of blocks per hour?

Yes, that is correct.

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#86

Post by riprowan »

rsi_oww wrote: post #26
threeseed wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a non Bitcoin user it does seem very strange that /r/bitcoin would take a position not to allow discussion over a particular issue relevant to the community. And not just any issue but the biggest issue that is critical to its future direction.

You can discuss it all you want. You can't promote it just as you can't promote Litecoin or any other different protocol and ledger. Basically the only thing you see on /r/bitcoin for the last 10 months is discussion on this issue, constantly. Yeah, people who say "Developer Joe blow is a fraud, download the superior Bitcoin classic" get their posts removed. That's moderation. (And it is moderation that actually didn…

> You can't promote it just as you can't promote Litecoin or any other different protocol and ledger.

That's malarkey. Not a day goes by that Lightning Network isn't heavily promoted.

Lightning, for the uninitiated, is the "scaling solution" that's going to "fix" Bitcoin by completely turning the original protocol into a settlement layer for an entirely new, incomplete, untested, and full-of-holes payments network.

This complete rewrite of the Bitcoin protocol is being foisted on the community take-it-or-leave-it, but we can't discuss increasing the base protocol to even a modest 2MB, because "that would be promoting a different protocol and ledger."

I hope that non-redditors can appreciate the profound, biting irony in the situation for the BS it actually is.

https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#87

Post by riprowan »

maaku wrote: post #73
riprowan wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The people pushing the need to fork would bombard the Reddit forum for many months, very likely with sockpuppets. Or, maybe, a lot of people read the white paper, and took significant issue with command-and-control style Bitcoin development. Everything needed to understand the roots of the debate can be found here: https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf > The proof-of-work also solves the problem of determining representa…

> Or, maybe, a lot of people read the white paper, and took significant issue with command-and-control style Bitcoin development. Bitcoin development is anything but command and control. Please stop repeating nonsense.

Nonsense?

If development isn't already centralized, then by definition, it cannot be "taken over" by anyone.

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#88

Post by riprowan »

forgetsusername wrote: post #48
rsi_oww wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main Bitcoin forum on Reddit is censored heavy handed. No criticism allowed, mentions of alternative software or forums get deleted right away. This is simply not true. The only rule on the /r/bitcoin Reddit is not to promote these network fork attempts. This is not just alternative software, it is software that follows DIFFERENT rules from the main bitcoin software and would follow a different ledger history i…

> very likely with sockpuppets How easily people look to conspiracy theories.

"very likely"

The science is settled.

How interesting that a group of people capable of wielding DDoS doesn't know how to counter-sockpuppet.

Could it be that they are simply vastly outnumbered?

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#89

Post by riprowan »

wslh wrote: post #64
rsi_oww wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The main Bitcoin forum on Reddit is censored heavy handed. No criticism allowed, mentions of alternative software or forums get deleted right away. This is simply not true. The only rule on the /r/bitcoin Reddit is not to promote these network fork attempts. This is not just alternative software, it is software that follows DIFFERENT rules from the main bitcoin software and would follow a different ledger history i…

If Satoshi Nakamoto him/herself appears and he/she promotes increasing the block size, would you change your position?

Satoshi Nakamoto did promote increasing the block size, in 2010. As you can see from the discussion, many of the same players were already freezing their positions in this debate six years ago.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1347.msg15366#msg153...

Re: Satoshi Roundtable Thoughts

#90

Post by Andrew_Quentin »

Taek wrote: post #14
studentrob wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. You're even getting down voted here without explanation. EDIT: Well you used to be grey and at the bottom. Now you're up top.

There has been an enormous and coordinated effort to disrupt the Bitcoin community, and many of the actions have been far from subtle. /r/bitcoin has been subject to spam attacks, sockpuppets, brigade voting, and a huge number of manipulations. The moderator team tried to control it, honest people became victim to heavy handed moderation, and a lot of damage was done. The grandparent comment really does not seem genu…

That sounds like a lot of conspiracy theory with zero evidence. Mind producing some actual evidence of brigading, sock puppeting, etc, preferably before theymos started banning everyone and was downvoted to -1,000 by the bitcoin community, not by whatever your paranoid head imagines.

Moreover, didn't theymos say he would ban coinbase from r/bitcoin. I suppose coinbases is a sockpuppet too right and maybe they out to destroy bitcoin because it isn't bitcoin that gives them their business.

All we get from small blockers is conspiracies and conspiracies, all the while you engage in ddosing, banning, censorship, changing of sorting orders, secret honk kong meetings, backroom deals with miners and on and on.

There is an attack going on and that is the insanity of the small blockers - a tiny minority of only 10% - crippling bitcoin by keeping network capacity limited, creating a huge backlog, unreliable transactions, and now we on HN discussing it.

Congrats - nutheads.

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