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Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

theguardian.com

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Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#81

Post by noobiemcfoob »

jezclaremurugan wrote: post #38
studentrob wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretend I'm the token IT guy in your friend network, "The FBI request to unlock Apple phones will not make you more safe. Criminals will use an alternative encryption device or app to communicate, or create their own." It shouldn't take long to disprove the government's claim.

How many people have a token IT guy in their friend network? and how much do they respect what he/she says when it contradicts their familiar narrative? Why have those IT guys not been able to stop their friends from downloading/installing stupid stuff and so on? Just pointing out that the IT guy may not have much sway over the general population.

This is a great point. IT professionals tend to overestimate both their numbers in and influence on the general population.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#82

Post by fooqux »

zaphar wrote: post #21

I'm not so sure that Apple wasn't aware and perhaps even looking for a battle with the {FBI,NSA,CIA,...} when they added encryption. You don't start designing a system that makes you incapable of fulfilling a warrant without expecting and indeed preparing for those battles in the future. In a way with things like NSL's and Secret warrants and courts the US had backed companies like Apple and Google into a wall. Post…

> Go ahead and get your secret warrants and send those NSL's it's physically impossible for us to get you the information you want.

I would agree with you except for this bit right here. Apple has already acknowledged that they can break this. They just don't want to. If they government pushes hard enough, they won't have a choice. My cynical side this is probably all Apple was hoping for. Look like the good guys, but don't do anything that would increase their liability.

Even if they designed something they couldn't break now, they control the update mechanism. Adding the ability to do so in the next update is, from my understanding of Apple products, possible. I do agree that it has forced this whole thing out into the open, but they could have done so much more here to make it actually impossible to break if they truly wanted to make a stand. Of course, they'd be giving up their hold on your device if they did that.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#83

Post by plorg »

I am of a few minds about this. Firstly, I do not want to create a political environment where the government can tell people how their phones can be made (w.r.t. security, particularly). Thus, I want there to be clear limits on what federal agencies are able to do.

But secondly, I am skeptical about the way giant corporations wield their power against the government. Apple surely has its own priorities and goals, which are often at odds with mine and, separately, those of the government that represents me. While I have a small bit of influence on how my government operates I have even less influence on how such corporations operate, even though their decisions greatly affect my life. When their position re:privacy reflects mine, I am glad for it, but what happens when the issue is taxation or trade policy? My government might not be pursuing great solutions on these issues, but I don't really trust giant self-interested corporations to have a better solution.

Thirdly, though, I am personally concerned about how this debate cements Apple's power to lock down their devices even, in many ways against their users. The particulars of their security design seem to preclude users from writing their own operating systems for the phone or creating/using software that isn't directly sanctioned by the company. The same applies, to a great extent, to other hardware and software vendors (in particular, Google/Microsoft/Motorola/Samsung/HTC/etc.). I suspect this battle will end up giving us more locked-down devices in the name of security.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#84

Post by vectorjohn »

mc808 wrote: post #17
jokoon wrote: post #8

Well I can't expect HN to agree with this article, but let's face it, technologies pose new political questions. I think the argument about the iPhone backdoor software is a slippery slope one. As long as the judicial system use mandates and the process is transparent, I think you can't really complain. This is what Snowden is about. We're talking about homeland defense here, the Islamic State is on the rise, so I wo…

I am indeed careful or even hesitant about defending Apple because I abhor most of their business practices, but they are 100% right in fighting back against involuntary servitude here. The FBI and judges can't just march around and force people to write software for them.

Yes they can. And that's how it should be in my opinion. Every time a company is demanded to hand over documents or information about an investigation, that is what happened. A company was ordered to do involuntary work. And it's fine as long as we make sure to keep the warrants in check and not rubber stamped.

Drawing the line at software is arbitrary and does a disservice. It's that same narrow minded view of software (as being somehow different than the physical world) that leads to idiotic things like treating email inboxes different than physical inboxes.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#85

Post by mc808 »

vectorjohn wrote: post #84
mc808 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am indeed careful or even hesitant about defending Apple because I abhor most of their business practices, but they are 100% right in fighting back against involuntary servitude here. The FBI and judges can't just march around and force people to write software for them.

Yes they can. And that's how it should be in my opinion. Every time a company is demanded to hand over documents or information about an investigation, that is what happened. A company was ordered to do involuntary work. And it's fine as long as we make sure to keep the warrants in check and not rubber stamped. Drawing the line at software is arbitrary and does a disservice. It's that same narrow minded view of softw…

I would have drawn the line much sooner, and yes it has to be drawn. If the FBI needs more employees, they should hire some from a pool of voluntary applicants.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#86

Post by drewcrawford »

tptacek wrote: post #78
twoodfin wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm actually wondering this, too. Is there a technological reason why Apple fulfilling this request makes their (not subject-to-warrant) customers less secure? Why isn't their private code-signing key the linchpin? I fully buy that there are legal, cultural, and diplomatic reasons that this could make Apple's customers less secure in the long run by setting a precedent, etc. I guess one argument is that whatever code…

It won't make phones less secure in any technological sense. Defeating the 5C's passcode counter is a capability Apple has today, and DOJ is willing to allow Apple to bypass it on Apple's own premises rather than providing DOJ with an image that does it. The kind of insecurity people are talking about is a policy concern; people will feel less secure if Apple can be compelled to exploit their capability this way. Tha…

You're drawing a false dichotomy when you talk about technology and policy as separate issues. If you are unable to overhear my encrypted messages, were you stopped by the technology of the Salsa20 algorithm or my policy of not giving you the keys? Or were you stopped by the government's policy of not compelling their production for you? Maybe you were stopped by your own policy of not beating people with rubber hoses?

In the hypothetical that Apple did not have the capability to defeat the 5C's passcode counter, is the FBI thwarted because of a technically secure cryptosystem or because it is the policy in the United States to allow such cryptosystems to be marketed and sold?

Policy and technology do not exist in a vacuum. Apple is obviously going to close the custom image loophole in response to this "debate"; so clearly the boundary between technology and policy is fluid. But merely taping a policy out for silicon, as Apple is going to do in the next chip, does not address any of the underlying issues. Sure, in the instant case Apple "technically can" unlock the iPhone, but that is always true: we could create a law such that all phones must be backdoored for example. Assuming Apple loses here, mark your calendar, because we'll have that battle next year when a terrorist uses the new silicon.

There is a line somewhere for what is reasonable to compel. Reasonable people can disagree about where that line is, but let's not paint "people in technology" with a broad patronizing brush of "it's not technology, it's policy, therefore your rules don't apply". Technology is merely policy that's machine-readible.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#87

Post by tptacek »

drewcrawford wrote: post #86
tptacek wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won't make phones less secure in any technological sense. Defeating the 5C's passcode counter is a capability Apple has today, and DOJ is willing to allow Apple to bypass it on Apple's own premises rather than providing DOJ with an image that does it. The kind of insecurity people are talking about is a policy concern; people will feel less secure if Apple can be compelled to exploit their capability this way. Tha…

You're drawing a false dichotomy when you talk about technology and policy as separate issues. If you are unable to overhear my encrypted messages, were you stopped by the technology of the Salsa20 algorithm or my policy of not giving you the keys? Or were you stopped by the government's policy of not compelling their production for you? Maybe you were stopped by your own policy of not beating people with rubber hose…

I don't think any of this has anything to do with the comment I wrote. You have a strong policy opinion. That's fine. I didn't criticize it.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#88

Post by studentrob »

twoodfin wrote: post #76
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is one subpoena away.

Well, that's the ballgame no matter what Apple does right now.

There's still the question whether or not government can compel a software company to weaken its own security policy.

That will have a significant impact on the future of the US tech industry, world innovation, and the advancement of the human race.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#89

Post by studentrob »

fweespeech wrote: post #72
studentrob wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's too soon to get a feel for the media narrative, but, what do you think that will be? Doesn't Apple buy ads? Our media isn't always pro-government, thankfully, so let's see what comes out. So far I see reports of Cook's statement, the Apple Q&A, and Comey's letter. Some are opinionated but most are just telling the story.

> It's too soon to get a feel for the media narrative, but, what do you think that will be? Doesn't Apple buy ads? Apple buys Ads but Apple "cares" only because of the PR value of encrypting things and the fact enough of Apple's younger crowd would ditch them that it would eat into their quarterly profits. However, if its in the corner of losing 5% of their customers vs. a major legal war with the US Government, I'm…

You're thinking about too many things and lumping them all under the same narrative, that people are apathetic.

Plenty of people still care about things, and the fact that you can come up with this list shows you do too.

Sometimes people just need to hear something said in a different way, and sometimes you just can't reach them. It's okay if some people don't hear you. If any people do become more informed because of your message then you have succeeded.

Re: Apple’s FBI battle is just the beginning of a reality check for the tech sector

#90

Post by jokoon »

nerdcity wrote: post #49
jokoon wrote: post #8

Well I can't expect HN to agree with this article, but let's face it, technologies pose new political questions. I think the argument about the iPhone backdoor software is a slippery slope one. As long as the judicial system use mandates and the process is transparent, I think you can't really complain. This is what Snowden is about. We're talking about homeland defense here, the Islamic State is on the rise, so I wo…

>We're talking about homeland defense here, the Islamic State is on the rise I can taste your sweet fear from here.

Well I'm not afraid myself, but you should talk to people who work at the FBI, homeland security, and the CIA, to see how they view things. Security does matter. When you have large scale events like what is happening in Syria, it becomes an issue of national defense, would you like it or not.

I know that a difference must be made, and not let security have an influence on freedom.

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