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Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

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Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#81

Post by Taek »

Kephael wrote: post #68

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the…

As someone who has been trying to hire CS talent, I can say that most of my interviews have been pretty underwhelming. Maybe 10% possess the level of talent and interest that we're looking for, and as few as 50% can even code fibbonacci. Like 20% are able to write a successful nlogn sort. And that's after I tell them that sorting will be a part of their interview!

I'm not sure that more schooling is the answer, but I do feel like we are always strapped for talent. The people who pass are usually spent a significant amount of time teaching themselves.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#82

Post by facepalm »

These days I struggle to find a lot of use cases for non-IT-people to use programming. It makes a fine hobby, but not better than another hobby.

For a while I was enthusiastic about things like Greasemonkey which would have allowed people to modify the software they use on a daily base. But it doesn't seem to have taken off, and presumably web clients are increasingly more complex so that "greasemonkeying" become too complex, too.

Long story short - I'd be happy to hear about examples for ways that non-IT-people could improve their lives with programming.

I have even considered to donate part of my time to solving such problems, choosing from user-submitted problems.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#83

Post by Twirrim »

sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

According to the National Center for Education Statistics there were 98,817 public schools in 2009-2010 fiscal year. 4 billion / 98,817 = 40k each. So it's not that much money towards it.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#84

Post by nommm-nommm »

rdlecler1 wrote: post #2

If you're going to inspire students you're going to need a lot of teachers who are experts in CS. Unfortunately, our current education system doesn't allow experts to teach so now someone who knows CS is going to have to go get an education degree as well, just to take a massive pay cut.

>our current education system doesn't allow experts to teach

This isn't true in my state.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#85

Post by sandworm101 »

jt2190 wrote: post #79
sandworm101 wrote: post #69

How much of this will go to good teachers and interesting programs? And how much will simply be spent on overpriced machines (microsoft) and proprietary "connected classroom" concepts (apple)? You don't need much equipment to teach CS. Basic machines will do. And there is no need to spend any money on software these days (f/oss). I worry that this money is less an educational initiative and more a handout to those co…

> How much of [the pledged > 4,000,000,000 USD] will go > to good teacher and interesting programs? It looks like about 1,000,000 USD will go directly to educators. [1] [1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2016/01/30/computer-science-...

I don't even see that single million going to teachers. At most, I see lots of money for "training" teachers, but that isn't money in their hands. That's filing PD days, not hiring teachers with CS backgrounds to actually inspire kids.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#86

Post by rayiner »

Taek wrote: post #81
Kephael wrote: post #68

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the…

As someone who has been trying to hire CS talent, I can say that most of my interviews have been pretty underwhelming. Maybe 10% possess the level of talent and interest that we're looking for, and as few as 50% can even code fibbonacci. Like 20% are able to write a successful nlogn sort. And that's after I tell them that sorting will be a part of their interview! I'm not sure that more schooling is the answer, but I…

More schooling is definitely not the answer. By your numbers, funneling more kids into CS programs is creating 9 extra employable graduates with debt for every 1 extra graduate worth hiring.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#87

Post by brapadap »

Taek wrote: post #81
Kephael wrote: post #68

I don't believe there is any shortage of computer science talent. I believe there is only a shortage of students graduating with CS degrees from schools like Stanford and MIT which is what many employers are looking for. NACE figures really seem to indicate we don't need more junior level programmers as 42.5% of graduating seniors majoring in CS did not have a full time job offer (not even in unrelated fields) at the…

As someone who has been trying to hire CS talent, I can say that most of my interviews have been pretty underwhelming. Maybe 10% possess the level of talent and interest that we're looking for, and as few as 50% can even code fibbonacci. Like 20% are able to write a successful nlogn sort. And that's after I tell them that sorting will be a part of their interview! I'm not sure that more schooling is the answer, but I…

have you tried recruiting people without CS degrees?

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#88

Post by brapadap »

wfo wrote: post #23
throwaway420 wrote: post #6

People are intelligent in many different ways and I don't believe that most people have the abstract thinking skills necessary to really thrive in computer science. Forcing everybody to take part in computer science education is probably going to frustrate the hell out of most people (make them feel stupid and annoyed at having to do this stuff) and dumb down the curriculum for the small percentage of kids who would…

I think you're overestimating how hard CS is compared to other fields (hint: it's not harder). They teach calculus in high school. And calculus-based physics. They have autoshop and woodshop which is honestly very similar to the kind of CS I would imagine high school students learning (understanding systems, debugging, building them, learning which pieces fit where and how to make them do what you want, following tut…

what percentage of high school students actually learn calculus and physics (and get at least OK grades)?

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#89

Post by rayiner »

c06n wrote: post #56
ams6110 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Inner city school. First of all they often have basic infrastructure issues: leaky roofs, poorly- or non-working heat, rodent and insect infestations. OK those things are in theory correctable. Secondly is the demographics. Inner city kids are often from low-income single-parent homes, living with foster parents or extended relatives, moving a couple of times a year, one or both parents may be incarcerated. Being aro…

Would you say that once (a part of a) society is broken, it's broken for good? And that we would have to "transfer" people out of it if they are to have a future?

I wouldn't say broken for good, but I would say that education isn't the solution for what is fundamentally a social problem. In D.C., the public school district spends $30,000 per student (only slightly less than tuition at Sidwell Friends, where the Obamas send their kids). Many of the buildings are beautiful. And school performance is a disaster, because the vast majority of the families are low-income. Better schools and more qualified teachers are never going to fix their problems. It'd be better to just take a third of that money and write each kid a $10,000 check every year.

Re: Obama Pledges $4B to Computer Science in US Schools

#90

Post by analog31 »

nommm-nommm wrote: post #75
bane wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So long as this doesn't translate into a grant that confuses CS with Programming I'm all for it. Students already have to learn mathematics. Learning about computation is just as important these days.

>Learning about computation is just as important these days. Why?

Perhaps one reason is that outside of school math, computation is actually how most people do math, and to a considerable extent, science.

Don't get me wrong, I was a math & physics major in college, and love doing derivations and proofs by hand. But in my present job, if I have to solve a math problem, or perform an experiment, I reach for my computer.

As it stands, school math is limited to problems that can be solved by hand in "closed form," creating a stilted view of what can be done with math.

I realize that programming is not CS, but an introduction to computation, within the math and science curriculum, might be a way to make those subjects more interesting and relevant, while also providing some preparation for kids who might develop an interest in CS later on.

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