Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 188 posts

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#81

Post by utternerd »

davidw wrote: post #56
wfo wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you can always truck in a slew of desperate people willing to work for lower and lower wages until we descend into de facto slavery (not even being hyperbolic, that's essentially what many sweatshops are in some countries, look at hypercapitalist Dubai where companies retain control of 'employee's passports and refuse to return them so employees cannot escape the country/near-fatal working conditions). We've…

IT jobs are pretty easy to export, too, so if there's a big disparity, sooner or later, the jobs can go the other direction, if the people can't come in this (towards the US) direction.

It's absolutely been happening in certain markets. Folks need to make sure they're providing the appropriate value at their income bracket, or else they or their company will eventually suffer the consequences.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#82

Post by davidw »

rayiner wrote: post #71
davidw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is special about the number 65,000? Absolutely nothing. It's central planning for something that doesn't require it: http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...

That's a pretty ignorant article. The limiting factor for immigration is how quickly you can Americanize immigrants, not land area. As for why it's imperative to Americanize immigrants. Look at how much trouble the U.S. has had cultivating democracy in places like Iraq. Most people acknowledge that the Iraqi people aren't ready for Democracy. Do you think they would be any more ready for democracy if you moved them e…

> how quickly you can Americanize immigrants, not land area.

Well that's an easily defined metric, isn't it...

There's nothing that says you must let immigrants become citizens right away, or give them all the same privileges citizens are entitled to. For instance, it wouldn't be at all unfair to kick people out for certain classes of crime.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#83

Post by jmspring »

There used to be an implied contract between employee and company back in the day -- the company would provide growth opportunities and training for an employee, and the employee would stay with the company for years.

That hasn't been the case for many many years, but the memory lingers and some employees feel beholden to companies. Many large public corporations these days look for maximizing "share holder value", which translates into "what can we do right now to maximize revenue". That being said, those short term actions will have long term effects. Cringely has done well to document the case of IBM. My graduate advisor was old school IBM and was still getting money from a time when (i don't know the exact specifics) where if an employee made a significant impact that saved the company money, they company would provide some renumeration in kind. His patents, etc. still brought him money from his time at IBM.

This is going to be a gross over simplification, but it is based on personal experience at two companies -- both startups. There are certain nationalities, maybe it is due to national ties, sometimes it seems due to prior business relationships and potential kickbacks, where an individual in power puts significant pressure on the company to hire a particular out sourcing firm or sponsor an H1-B for a particular individual.

Just like the numerous debates around "women in tech", there are factors at play and decisions made where hiring isn't always about "what's right for the company", but more about a "cultural" or "ethnic" fit.

Skill and merit should be at the forefront (a pipe dream, but we like to think it is there). Any work place where there is a significant dominance of one culture over another (unless, say a whole team was brought in as a whole) speaks to a diversity and cultural problem. Unfortunately, a lot of these can also be coupled to Visas like the H1-B.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#84

Post by protomyth »

calvinbhai wrote: post #68
protomyth wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the real fix is to make sure the actual goals of the program align with what actually happens. At this point, saying that each H1-B worker must make $117,700[1] or more to prove they are skilled beyond US workers seems to be a fair change. After all, if you can hire US citizens cheaper, you are not fulfilling the goals of the program[2]. 1) 10x poverty guidelines in US for 2015. 2) http://www.dol.gov/whd/immigrat…

it is not fair. Its not fair for genuine h1b sponsoring companies in geographic locations where cost of living is low. $117,700 in San Francisco is not the same as $117,700 in Austin. Again, any minimum salary requirement, becomes very easy to game (employee can be expected to pay back in cash, for the difference). This will put genuine companies (that cannot do such shady deals) at a great disadvantage

Perhaps I should have put the full poverty level tables which are calculated at https://aspe.hhs.gov but 10x the local poverty level seems more than fair.

> Again, any minimum salary requirement, becomes very easy to game (employee can be expected to pay back in cash, for the difference). This will put genuine companies (that cannot do such shady deals) at a great disadvantage

Paybacks are illegal now and should stay that way. A couple of criminal prosecutions would do wonders for fraud.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#85

Post by chimeracoder »

rayiner wrote: post #71
davidw wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is special about the number 65,000? Absolutely nothing. It's central planning for something that doesn't require it: http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number...

That's a pretty ignorant article. The limiting factor for immigration is how quickly you can Americanize immigrants, not land area. As for why it's imperative to Americanize immigrants. Look at how much trouble the U.S. has had cultivating democracy in places like Iraq. Most people acknowledge that the Iraqi people aren't ready for Democracy. Do you think they would be any more ready for democracy if you moved them e…

> Most people acknowledge that the Iraqi people aren't ready for Democracy.

This is a really contentious statement that you just drop in both as fact and as the basis of your entire argument.

No, I would not say that 'the Iraqi people aren't ready for Democracy' is a true statement. I also wouldn't say that what 'most people [in the US]' think about the Iraqi people's readiness for democracy [in Iraq] is really relevant to the question of whether they are ready for democracy [in Iraq]. I also wouldn't say that the question of whether they (as a group) are 'ready' for democracy in Iraq is relevant to answering the question of whether individual Iraqi people are 'ready' for democracy in Minnesota (whatever that means).

> Look at how much trouble the U.S. has had cultivating democracy in places like Iraq.

It also doesn't help that we have a long history of doing the exact opposite of 'cultivating democracy' in the Middle East (ie, going in and deposing democratically-elected leaders so that we can install dictators that are friendly to the US).

The US has had trouble cultivating democratically elected regimes that are friendly towards us in countries like Iraq. In the US, we tend to conflate 'democratic government' with 'government that shares our objectives and goals'.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#86

Post by rayiner »

davidw wrote: post #82
rayiner wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a pretty ignorant article. The limiting factor for immigration is how quickly you can Americanize immigrants, not land area. As for why it's imperative to Americanize immigrants. Look at how much trouble the U.S. has had cultivating democracy in places like Iraq. Most people acknowledge that the Iraqi people aren't ready for Democracy. Do you think they would be any more ready for democracy if you moved them e…

> how quickly you can Americanize immigrants, not land area. Well that's an easily defined metric, isn't it... There's nothing that says you must let immigrants become citizens right away, or give them all the same privileges citizens are entitled to. For instance, it wouldn't be at all unfair to kick people out for certain classes of crime.

I'm not talking about privileges. I'm talking about getting immigrants to buy into the attitudes and values that make America worth living in. I'm talking about integrating immigrants into American society as neighbors so they're not living in their own neighborhoods where they can insulate themselves from the prevailing culture. There is a limit on how quickly you can do this.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#87

Post by davidw »

rayiner wrote: post #86
davidw wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how quickly you can Americanize immigrants, not land area. Well that's an easily defined metric, isn't it... There's nothing that says you must let immigrants become citizens right away, or give them all the same privileges citizens are entitled to. For instance, it wouldn't be at all unfair to kick people out for certain classes of crime.

I'm not talking about privileges. I'm talking about getting immigrants to buy into the attitudes and values that make America worth living in. I'm talking about integrating immigrants into American society as neighbors so they're not living in their own neighborhoods where they can insulate themselves from the prevailing culture. There is a limit on how quickly you can do this.

> the attitudes and values that make America worth living in.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that codifying exactly what those are and if someone is going to be able to accept them in X months/years is not going to be an easy task.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#88

Post by hpagey »

logfromblammo wrote: post #57
untog wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real fix to this is to make sure that people brought over with an H1-B can easily change jobs When I was on an H1B visa I changed jobs multiple times, very easily. Part of the problem is that people (including potential employers) aren't aware how easy it is.

I think the problem may be with those who intend to apply for permanent residency while legally present on an H1B. Once you apply for a green card, you have to maintain legal immigration status continuously. Furthermore, nationals of India and China have to wait longer, due to country quotas and relative demand. There is something called a priority date, which is somewhat akin to taking a number instead of waiting on…

i-140 can transferred between employers and you retain your PD. Typically, sponsoring companies do not revoke i-140.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#89

Post by logfromblammo »

Fat_Rat wrote: post #35

I'm not against immigration, but the most egregious offense here was having the replacement workers trained by current employees as a stipulation of their severance. Here's the article that was posted here a little over half a year ago. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-... It's nice to see some closure.

The intent of the H1B is supposedly to provide foreign workers for labor categories where no American national can be found to perform the work. If there is any training going on there at all, that is proof of fraud. If the ones doing the training are American nationals, that just makes it more egregious.

Hadean justice would alter the H1B visa category such that the guest worker could perform no function for the company other than to train American nationals to perform adequately in the labor category that required the imported foreign worker.

Clearly, if it is advantageous to import a skill, it would be more advantageous to replicate it during the limited time that it is available.

Re: Lawsuits Claim Disney Colluded to Replace U.S. Workers with Immigrants

#90

Post by r00fus »

pharrington wrote: post #62

The obvious next step after preventing corporations from replacing current employees with low wage immigrant workers is to replace the employees with low wage American workers. Visa laws seem orthagonal to the main problem here.

So then we replace those with even lower wage immigrants and repeat the cycle?
Post reply on HN