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The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

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Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#81

Post by shadowmint »

Why will it be any different this time compared to last time with GWT, Dojo or SproutCore?

Server - client binding javascript widget frameworks are nothing new, and they have, historically, failed to be capture broad adoption because they require a very specific backend.

If you had an excellent series of react components with data binding done via an open server specification and meteor just happened to be one implementation that backend; people would really dig that!

...but there would be a lot of people who didn't use meteor at all; and just wrote their own server implementation for it.

    “but wait, if we end up using React, Relay, and GraphQL,
    what do we even need Meteor for anymore?”.
    ...
    This all boils down to one key fact: Meteor is the only
    framework that controls the whole stack.
So what? Who cares? Controlling the whole stack isn't even remotely interesting unless there's some tangible benefit from it.

This is by far the weakest and least compelling part of this article.

    So this is my vision of the future of web development 
    for 2016. React as a common front-end standard, and 
    Meteor starting out as one of many possible back-end
    choices, but slowly becoming the one that just makes 
    sense.
You really need to try harder to explain why Meteor would be a compelling choice for people then.

If the front-end component api is well defined and backend agnostic, meteor seems to offer literally no particular benefit over any other backend someone might choose.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#82

Post by Bahamut »

ef4 wrote: post #55
d0m wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One interesting thing about React is how some big names (Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Yahoo) rallied to React instead of creating their own libraries, whereas they all had their own-cooked libraries before. Also, which is more of a personal opinion, but I've tried a lot of frameworks/libraries and React is the first one that really "clicked" with the way I work and design. I don't think it will "replace jQuery", but for m…

> some big names (Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Yahoo) rallied to React That's a bit of an overstatement. At least three of those four are also shipping major Ember apps and investing heavily in that ecosystem. (The only one I don't know for sure is Amazon.)

And at least 3 also ship apps with Angular as well, and I know Netflix has some eyes on Angular 2 as well with several key figures from Netflix having helped shape some of Angular 2's direction (at least through the push for observables).

This war talk is silly, and sort of akin to fanboyism that is often seen in stuff like video game consoles - lot of preaching & rhetoric, short on hard numbers and other meaningful metrics/facts.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#83

Post by kevan »

jonesb6 wrote: post #25
d0m wrote: post #6

I completely agree and I'm excited about this vision for Meteor. The dream would be to have a go-to choice with formidable standards that Just Works. Personally, what I wish existed was a full-stack framework AND dev ops built with the "best" open source libraries. I'm fine with not having my favorite X if it means having a set of well supported, highly performant with lots of documentation and training materials ser…

I'd strongly disagree with the idea that we need or even want one ring to rule them all. Remember different frameworks are designed to solve different problems in different ways [1][2]. Anyone who has dug deep enough into a framework or tool-set will be able to write out a very long list of unique quarks, gotchas, caveats, hidden strengths/weaknesses, and what have you. It's those differences that will make one frame…

What if we replace "best" with "good enough for most common uses"? Most of the roads and bridges we build today aren't pinnacles of innovation, they're just good enough that we don't bother optimizing them much more. With how young the software engineering field is I don't think we'll get to this point in the near future, but part of me looks forward to a day when we have widely accepted standard solutions to common problems that don't go out of style for decades.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#84

Post by apalmer »

incepted wrote: post #51
apalmer wrote: post #16

I am amazed by how the article attempts to look forward to what the future will hold with JavaScript frameworks... and yet seems to be completely both dismiss or misunderstand (perhaps willfully) why previous frameworks have succeeded. jQuery did not succeed because it was a 'good enough' competitor to dojo or prototype or mootools or extjs... it succeeded because it went completely the opposite direction. it did not…

jQuery filled a need. It's as simple as that. Its success has nothing to do with looking in the other direction or not redefining Javascript: it solved a problem that a lot of Javascript developers were struggling with. Now what's really fascinating to me now is that while one can safely say jQuery created a revolution in the Javascript world when it came out, it is today widely looked as a smell and avoided as much…

I agree whole heartedly thats what i am getting at... jQuery succeeded not by trying to be everything but by trying to solve a real straightforward common issue that affects big projects and small projects, super senior developers and junior developers...

I am not suggesting we go back to jquery, i am suggesting that the next really successful widespread framework is going to get adopting by solving a specific widespread problem in a way that appears simple to the consuming developer...

as for jquerys run, it had the best run of any javascript framework in history, by a wide margin... and it really got supplanted not by other frameworks, or even by just losing popularity... it was so successful that it drove all the modern browsers to adopt its api and build it natively into the browser engine...

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#85

Post by Karunamon »

apalmer wrote: post #16

I am amazed by how the article attempts to look forward to what the future will hold with JavaScript frameworks... and yet seems to be completely both dismiss or misunderstand (perhaps willfully) why previous frameworks have succeeded. jQuery did not succeed because it was a 'good enough' competitor to dojo or prototype or mootools or extjs... it succeeded because it went completely the opposite direction. it did not…

Silly question - why are is everybody talking about jQuery in the past tense and why are you saying it "did not succeed"?

It just got a beta release of a major version less than a week ago, it's a core part of Bootstrap, which just about anyone building webapps has used at some point, and depending on whose statistics you look at[1], powers a frankly absurd number of sites, including things everyone's heard of like Microsoft and Yahoo and Amazon.

That's the opposite of a has-been thing that did not succeed in my book.

[1]: http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/js-jquery/all/all

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#86

Post by rimantas »

dham wrote: post #27

I strongly urge you to take a step back and really look at React community from 30,000 foot view. Please don't get on the hype train without taking a look at other solutions. Vue.js as far as libraries go, and Ember as far as framework go. I promise you, you'll have a better experience.

As an old-school html purists I am off-put by Vue's markup. The same goes for any framework that needs invent their own attributes and tags.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#87

Post by lolc »

xxxxxxxx wrote: post #49
rmason wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a look at the trend line and React still has a long ways to go to catch Angular: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=reactjs%2C%20angular... Having stated that I am trying to get up to speed on React in order to make a knowledgeable comparison to Angular 2. I've got friends who are way better JavaScript programmers than I am, ones with VC backed startups built with Angular 1, who are really struggling to lea…

Interesting. Looks what happens when you add jQuery: https://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=reactjs%2C%20angular...

I could imagine that people omit the 'jquery' keyword nowadays because it's implied.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#88

Post by DCoder »

ef4 wrote: post #55
d0m wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One interesting thing about React is how some big names (Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Yahoo) rallied to React instead of creating their own libraries, whereas they all had their own-cooked libraries before. Also, which is more of a personal opinion, but I've tried a lot of frameworks/libraries and React is the first one that really "clicked" with the way I work and design. I don't think it will "replace jQuery", but for m…

> some big names (Amazon, Apple, Netflix, Yahoo) rallied to React That's a bit of an overstatement. At least three of those four are also shipping major Ember apps and investing heavily in that ecosystem. (The only one I don't know for sure is Amazon.)

Random data point: last time I checked, the AWS management console web interface was built in Angular.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#89

Post by fourstar »

NhanH wrote: post #5

Can someone chime in as to whether React won the frontend war? As in the super majority of new project will be developed in React. I'm not that well-versed in the Node ecosystem (I got my news from ... HN). But from little I've seen, I found it hard to believe that React would be able to react the place where jQuery was (is?). Heck, we even have a post staying on the front page today lamenting the inferiority of Reac…

React only won the people who aren't satisfied with their current framework/situation because they didn't have the attention span to stick to one thing for more than a year. Still using Backbone. Still works.

Re: The State of Meteor Part 2: What Happens Next

#90

Post by sergiotapia »

fourstar wrote: post #89
NhanH wrote: post #5

Can someone chime in as to whether React won the frontend war? As in the super majority of new project will be developed in React. I'm not that well-versed in the Node ecosystem (I got my news from ... HN). But from little I've seen, I found it hard to believe that React would be able to react the place where jQuery was (is?). Heck, we even have a post staying on the front page today lamenting the inferiority of Reac…

React only won the people who aren't satisfied with their current framework/situation because they didn't have the attention span to stick to one thing for more than a year. Still using Backbone. Still works.

I completely agree, with the huge caveat that React works so incredibly well with Meteor it ruins the experiences with React elsewhere. It really is a match made in heaven. Give it a try.
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