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United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

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Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#81

Post by izacus »

mikeash wrote: post #24
ghaff wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that people complain but many then go ahead and book the cheapest flight whether it's to save their own money or to comply with corporate travel policies. I'm not sure what "disruption" you have in mind that isn't available to existing carriers.

This is the key. People complain about the airlines, but they're only giving their customers what the customers want. Sure, nobody says they'd rather be crammed into terrible seats and treated horribly to save $50, but that's how people behave, and that's all that counts. Next time you're eating your terrible free pretzels with your knees in the back of the person before you, don't blame the airline, blame your fello…

Why the heck would I blame myself or other customers when it's the company that's giving shitty service?!

If you want to make a capitalist argument then you also need to accept that customers also have the right to complain about the service they receive. It's part of the market. None of this "it's your own fault" bullshit when it's the airline that's installing the seats.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#82

Post by mikeash »

izacus wrote: post #81
mikeash wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the key. People complain about the airlines, but they're only giving their customers what the customers want. Sure, nobody says they'd rather be crammed into terrible seats and treated horribly to save $50, but that's how people behave, and that's all that counts. Next time you're eating your terrible free pretzels with your knees in the back of the person before you, don't blame the airline, blame your fello…

Why the heck would I blame myself or other customers when it's the company that's giving shitty service?! If you want to make a capitalist argument then you also need to accept that customers also have the right to complain about the service they receive. It's part of the market. None of this "it's your own fault" bullshit when it's the airline that's installing the seats.

Airlines offer better service if you pay for it. If you choose not to take advantage of that offer, you're telling the airline that you prefer to save money than have better service.

You have every right to complain, but complaining itself doesn't do anything. If you say X when you complain, but say Y when you pull out your wallet, airlines are naturally going to listen to Y much more than X.

I've lost count of how many times I've seen a conversation go like this:

"Airlines suck, I'm a tall guy and my knees are crammed into the seat back for the entire flight."

"Almost every airline these days offers an upgraded economy class with more legroom."

"Yeah, but it's too expensive!"

If you don't want to pay for it and would prefer to suffer (I'm a tall guy, and that's what I do too) then fine, but don't be surprised when the airlines listen to the signals you send with your money.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#83

Post by ghaff »

mikeash wrote: post #82
izacus wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the heck would I blame myself or other customers when it's the company that's giving shitty service?! If you want to make a capitalist argument then you also need to accept that customers also have the right to complain about the service they receive. It's part of the market. None of this "it's your own fault" bullshit when it's the airline that's installing the seats.

Airlines offer better service if you pay for it. If you choose not to take advantage of that offer, you're telling the airline that you prefer to save money than have better service. You have every right to complain, but complaining itself doesn't do anything. If you say X when you complain, but say Y when you pull out your wallet, airlines are naturally going to listen to Y much more than X. I've lost count of how m…

Mind you, United has more than its share of customer service issues even for people who regularly get upgraded. But I fully agree with your basic point. There does seem to be some market for relatively modestly priced legroom upgrades but, for the most part, the market tends to bifurcate into cheapest flight or price doesn't really matter.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#84

Post by ghaff »

geff82 wrote: post #80

I think not providing meals/refreshments on any flight longer than 30min is just wrong. Why? Of course on could argue that if you "pay less you get less" or that meals are not needed on short flights. But the true story is that often times, the actual time in flight is not the only time you wait. You stand in line at the TSA, you run through giant gangways, you are sitting in a plane that gets late an hour or more. W…

There's much to complain about with the airlines but this is one I just don't get.

5 hours without food doesn't seem like any great hardship. And there are any number of places at most airports where you can pickup a sandwich or whatever to bring on board (or pack some snack bars). I guess maybe if you were expecting a meal on a transcontinental flight but airline food in economy was always a bad joke. I'd probably prefer a bag of chips when they serve me water or a Coke but it's really not a big deal if I know they won't.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#85

Post by ghaff »

GVIrish wrote: post #77
ghaff wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But the real difference is in their cabin attendants. x10 better. At least some of which is for reasons that, properly, wouldn't fly in the US. They hire young, attractive, college-educated women who are enjoying flying the world for a few years before they settle down and get married. And who are not expected to stay on once they've enjoyed those few years.

I'm sure that's some of it, but I suspect the bigger factor is that some of the other international carriers put a bigger emphasis on customer service. I don't thing being young, college-educated, or female matters nearly as much as working for an organization that prides itself on customer service.

That's certainly fair. Although it's probably easier to implement that emphasis on customer service with young, enthusiastic people as opposed to a 25-year veteran who has been through various downsizings and contract disputes.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#86

Post by mikeash »

ghaff wrote: post #83
mikeash wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Airlines offer better service if you pay for it. If you choose not to take advantage of that offer, you're telling the airline that you prefer to save money than have better service. You have every right to complain, but complaining itself doesn't do anything. If you say X when you complain, but say Y when you pull out your wallet, airlines are naturally going to listen to Y much more than X. I've lost count of how m…

Mind you, United has more than its share of customer service issues even for people who regularly get upgraded. But I fully agree with your basic point. There does seem to be some market for relatively modestly priced legroom upgrades but, for the most part, the market tends to bifurcate into cheapest flight or price doesn't really matter.

Yeah, they don't have an option to pay $100 for better customer service, so that's a little more opaque. Still, different airlines do it differently, and it's rare not to have a choice of airline for your trip.

That's an interesting aspect of this trouble with United's service. They had a long period where their service was well below average. Did their passenger numbers suffer accordingly, or did everybody just put up with it?

The major US airlines all suck to some degree, but they suck differently, so if you care about that then go with the one you like best even if it costs more. If you don't, you're saying you don't actually care.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#87

Post by GVIrish »

ghaff wrote: post #85
GVIrish wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that's some of it, but I suspect the bigger factor is that some of the other international carriers put a bigger emphasis on customer service. I don't thing being young, college-educated, or female matters nearly as much as working for an organization that prides itself on customer service.

That's certainly fair. Although it's probably easier to implement that emphasis on customer service with young, enthusiastic people as opposed to a 25-year veteran who has been through various downsizings and contract disputes.

Yeah I think a big component of the poor customer service with United is being beat down over years of cost-cutting. I've seen firsthand how they've drastically cut down the number of gate agents which leaves almost a skeleton crew to deal with customers. In that environment I'm sure it's hard for someone to be chipper and helpful.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#88

Post by ghaff »

mikeash wrote: post #86
ghaff wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mind you, United has more than its share of customer service issues even for people who regularly get upgraded. But I fully agree with your basic point. There does seem to be some market for relatively modestly priced legroom upgrades but, for the most part, the market tends to bifurcate into cheapest flight or price doesn't really matter.

Yeah, they don't have an option to pay $100 for better customer service, so that's a little more opaque. Still, different airlines do it differently, and it's rare not to have a choice of airline for your trip. That's an interesting aspect of this trouble with United's service. They had a long period where their service was well below average. Did their passenger numbers suffer accordingly, or did everybody just put…

I'm honestly not convinced that there are huge differences between the big legacy US carriers. Or, at any rate, your experience is just as much dictated by how busy their hubs are, whether your common routes are non-stop (as many of mine are with United), whether you're tending to fly in the winter in northern climates, etc.

I'm sure I would have absolutely no problem collecting a long litany of horror stories about every major US airline from among my Facebook friends with status.

So I go with United for size of route system and frequency of flights at my home airport and get enough miles to have status which does help. (Alternatively, for one shorter route where United doesn't have a non-stop, I usually fly JetBlue which IMO is one of the better bets in the absence of status.)

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#89

Post by mikeash »

ghaff wrote: post #88
mikeash wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they don't have an option to pay $100 for better customer service, so that's a little more opaque. Still, different airlines do it differently, and it's rare not to have a choice of airline for your trip. That's an interesting aspect of this trouble with United's service. They had a long period where their service was well below average. Did their passenger numbers suffer accordingly, or did everybody just put…

I'm honestly not convinced that there are huge differences between the big legacy US carriers. Or, at any rate, your experience is just as much dictated by how busy their hubs are, whether your common routes are non-stop (as many of mine are with United), whether you're tending to fly in the winter in northern climates, etc. I'm sure I would have absolutely no problem collecting a long litany of horror stories about…

So much depends on luck, too. If you only fly a few times a year (which seems pretty typical) then the variance in experience can be huge. I think you really have to look at the relevant statistics to see how they actually compare. Gathering anecdotes from friends won't give you a good picture, especially since people have different standards for service. One person might say they had a bad experience when the airline baggage people took their bag and shredded each item in front of them while ridiculing their choice of underwear, while another might say they had a bad experience when their flight was delayed by 30 minutes because of a violent thunderstorm.

Re: United Airlines' Quest to Be Less Awful

#90

Post by pcurve »

ghaff wrote: post #85
GVIrish wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that's some of it, but I suspect the bigger factor is that some of the other international carriers put a bigger emphasis on customer service. I don't thing being young, college-educated, or female matters nearly as much as working for an organization that prides itself on customer service.

That's certainly fair. Although it's probably easier to implement that emphasis on customer service with young, enthusiastic people as opposed to a 25-year veteran who has been through various downsizings and contract disputes.

You're probably right about that. That happens at any office work place settings too. Difference here is, you are in a customer-facing job, where your attentiveness and face you put on impacts customer satisfaction. If you can't keep customers happy as well as a 25-year old, then you don't belong in the cabin.

Look, I don't blame the front-line workers for any of this. This is almost all management's fault. Look at Southwest. Their attendants are better trained, more motivated, and are happier.

Better work environment and management are important, but they're paid 25% more than other airlines. SW will attract better talent and retain them. I'm sure other airlines wouldn't mind having SW style employees. But their management is not willing to pay for it.

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