Earlier quoted context omitted.
It took me years to realize that economics isn't physics - and it isn't ruled by physics-like laws. Instead, economics is governed by laws created by our society. And what we think of as "free market" is really just norms of trade which are created by our society. There is no reason why the bulk of the billions taken-in by WalMart should go to the Walton family while their employees live on food-stamps - that is just…
Zizek phrased it kind of nicely once, in a way that stuck with me. He probably borrowed from somewhere, and I'll continue to lossily reproduce whatever the sentiment was, but it goes something like this. How is it possible that we are completely and utterly optimistic about breaking all sorts of physical barriers, like landing on Mars, and reusing rockets, and communicating worldwide via little handheld microcomputer…
Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
81–90 of 242 posts
Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
It took me years to realize that economics isn't physics - and it isn't ruled by physics-like laws. Instead, economics is governed by laws created by our society. And what we think of as "free market" is really just norms of trade which are created by our society. There is no reason why the bulk of the billions taken-in by WalMart should go to the Walton family while their employees live on food-stamps - that is just…
Do you believe in property rights? Having a legal/police system to catch people who forcebly take property? Using trade to exchange property? This is the core of our system. And that system will always generate inequality. Not necessarily a bad thing. You can have laws to take the edge off inequality generated, but at the core of the system you can't really avoid it.
The first two are complicated, because they are extremely political. To own geographic space is entirely divisive from owning just the dirt under a house, or the physical material that composes it. To own an idea, a trademark or a patent, is to assign exclusivity to thoughts. Its much easier to say "we have scarce goods, so those that create them can sell them, and the buyer owns it". Its why I think goods property is a good thing, but our attempts to strong arm real estate and IP into the same formula is a cause of constant economic tension because they aren't a good fit.
Just in this context for reference, I'm an IP abolitionist and think we should adopt homesteading of property again. Both forms of state granted monopoly to space and idea are being rampantly exploited by market forces and were conceived of in an age when technology did not enable the information exchange we have today. It would have been much more complicated to verify usage of a plot of land a hundred years ago than it would now, to know who previously owned it and for how long it has been unused before you could claim it as your own.
Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
I was being serious. Have a look at how things are done in Scandinavian countries, Australia, New Zealand. We have very few obscenely rich people in Australia, and we have no desperate people.
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Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#84> This is the problem.
That is a very good way to put it. I agree with that.
> So why doesn't Graham recognize and advocate this?
He doesn't advocate because it won't help his cause. As I posted in the comment of the original article (which got downvoted, nobody likes pg being accused of manufacturing pr? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10827175, hey! it's a submarine ;-).
He created a strawman and a narative around how to interpret and think about income inequality to give his followers and those involved in startups a framework. He understands he is part of what can create inequality, and that's bothersome to him and those around the startup culture. Startup environment needs myths to operate. These are promises to investors, promises to early employees, these are things founders are supposed to be telling others ("I want to make the world a better place") and perhaps themselves as well. There has to be a myth created that addressed income inequality, because it is talked about in the media.
As a joke, someone wrote (and I forgot who) how the wealthy and powerful in this country are devout Marxist followers. They internalize the rules and assumptions of the class struggle. Except they don't identify with the working class, they identify with the bourgeoisie. They understand there are the two classes and what class they belong to. They will actively try to control and supress the lower classes.
Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#85"At the very least, we should strive for a non-regressive tax system, which is what we have now." I'm super pro regressive taxes. Regressive taxes are fantastic for the poor. They get more than they put in AND the elite are less able to avoid paying them. The socialized promised lands of Scandinavia are highly regressive. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/17/why-im-soft-on-s...
Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#86No. Wealth is a symptom of a system where the winner takes all and the winner is increasingly technologically based companies.
Wealth allow you to increasingly affect the political process but only as a function of you being rich to begin with. No one starts with the political system to gain wealth at least they wont' be wealthy for very long if thats how they came to their wealth.
Income inequality is increasingly a symptom of systems with little friction to become the first or second in a field but a lot of friction to challenge them.
Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#87Those that sell to millions will make a lot more than those who only sell to a few.
Instead of trying to force equal outcomes, we should be teaching people about how they can benefit from leveraging technology.
Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
Do you believe in property rights? Having a legal/police system to catch people who forcebly take property? Using trade to exchange property? This is the core of our system. And that system will always generate inequality. Not necessarily a bad thing. You can have laws to take the edge off inequality generated, but at the core of the system you can't really avoid it.
> Do you believe in property rights? Not the OP, but I think a lot more people nowadays should read (or re-read) Locke's "Two Treatises of Government". That book is famous mostly for the second part, where Locke actually intellectually imposes private property as a thing in the Western world, but I found the first part equally interesting, where Locke fights against a guy called Filmer, who was of the opinion (preval…
Which, I think, is the central issue regarding property rights and inequality. We should question all rent generating property rights, just as Locke did, and try to find a system of propert rights where rent doesn't create inequality.
Taxation seems to be he popular approach, but why not try to redefine the rights all together? What if such property rights were time limited, and came with a fee equal to the rent potential?
Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#89Mr. Garret quotes Sanders: > The reality is that for the past 40 years, Wall Street and the billionaire class has rigged the rules to redistribute wealth and income to the wealthiest and most powerful people of this country. I am rather puzzled that this idea gets so much traction. Does anyone really believe that if only the rules weren't "rigged" local shops and businesses would be able to compete against Wal-Mart a…
It took me years to realize that economics isn't physics - and it isn't ruled by physics-like laws. Instead, economics is governed by laws created by our society. And what we think of as "free market" is really just norms of trade which are created by our society. There is no reason why the bulk of the billions taken-in by WalMart should go to the Walton family while their employees live on food-stamps - that is just…
So any rents-ey looking use of the political process is not free market no matter the wealth of those practicing it. This is what need work.
Wal-Mart in specific originally hired women in rural areas at a wage appropriate as a second income. Their husbands worked at an industrial or agricultural job.
Then they went through an explosion, but as the South Park says, the soul of every Wal-Mart is a mirror. The ag. or industrial job isn't there any more but by sheer momentum, that's the deal.
Wal-Mart is also not exactly a sentence of eternal penury - people who stay a few years, just by self-selection can move up the food chain. I'm not current, but a department manager made enough to raise a family very frugally. A store manager made pretty decent money.
The reason it's Wal-Mart and not Sears is decades of hard work at the logistics end - Wards and Sears shipped by train, even in the '60s. Wal-Mart just overran them with trucks.
But in a way, what's waiting for the end of Wal-Mart seems worse - Amazon. The labor component of production of goods is still disappearing.
Re: Income inequality is not the problem, it's a symptom
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, and these incentives are likely to cause companies to use subsidiaries and contract workers, so that their employee count is lower and the median wage of those employees higher. It's not clear to me that's a win for anyone other than consulting companies, tax prep and CPA firms.
> Yes, and these incentives are likely to cause companies to use subsidiaries and contract workers Only if the proposed change in rules contains such glaringly obvious loopholes; but I doubt that'll be the case, as the people trying to solve the problem have thought about it for more than 5 minutes.