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-2000 Lines of Code (2004)

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Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#81

Post by eru »

incepted wrote: post #80
lectrick wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> recruiters Dude, that right there is the problem. They make a commission off your starting salary, so OF COURSE their primary concern is your past and future financials. This is why I hate recruiters.

I disagree. Recruiters have a conflict of interest that often goes to the candidate's advantage and against their employer's interest. The higher your salary, the higher their commission. And employers are fine with that because a good hire is better than no hire.

The conflict of interest is more complicated:

For the recruiter, getting you in at 160k is twice as good as getting you in at 80k, and infinitely better than you walking away.

As a candidate that currently earns 100k, an 80k offer is worthless.

(Threatening to) walking away from a deal is one of the strongest strategies in negotiation. But that's the one thing a recruiter will never want you to do.

Candidate: High salary > no deal > low salary. Recruiter: High salary > low salary > no deal.

You are right, that the recruiter has an even bigger conflict of interest with their employer. But that conflict does not mean the recruiter's interests are aligned with the candidate.

(One way to align any interests is generally to repeat games. That's why internal recruiters are usually less sleazy than the external kind: they are at least clearly on the site of the employer. And honourable employers have a reputation to defend---another repeated game.)

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#82

Post by eru »

rhizome wrote: post #45
mgkimsal wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... there are recruiters who are a lot more invasive and pushy (and a couple employers I've run across). "Proof of previous income" was required at one place I applied years back, and I've heard similar stories from colleagues. No, of course, I don't bother going forward in those situations. "What are you making now?" is crass. The good recruiters I've worked with phrased it as "what are your salary expectations?"…

I've gotten "I need a number for us to continue" multiple times.

Threaten to walk away.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#83

Post by eru »

specialist wrote: post #70
wdewind wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so literal about it. I used to get defensive about that question too, but the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making, they are asking you to start the salary negotiation so they can get a feel for what it's going to take to hire you and describe you adequately to a hiring manager. It's just an opportunity for you both to ballpark the situation and eject early if there's going to be a wide di…

the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making Correct. They're just trying to figure out how little you will accept. they are asking you to start the salary negotiation Never be the first to give a number.

> Never be the first to give a number.

Always be the first to give a number and conditions.

Setting the stage is too important to let the other party do it.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#84

Post by eru »

monochromatic wrote: post #26
wdewind wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so literal about it. I used to get defensive about that question too, but the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making, they are asking you to start the salary negotiation so they can get a feel for what it's going to take to hire you and describe you adequately to a hiring manager. It's just an opportunity for you both to ballpark the situation and eject early if there's going to be a wide di…

> equally advantageous to both parties There ain't no such thing. Salary negotiations are pretty close to zero-sum.

> There ain't no such thing. Salary negotiations are pretty close to zero-sum.

If you do strike a deal, that's along a fixed sum border.

But do keep in mind, that either party can always blow up the whole process at almost any time. This is important.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#85

Post by eru »

fredkbloggs wrote: post #50
crpatino wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, please don't sugar coat it. HR people do actually see current income as 'social proof' of your actual worth. This is not necessarily out of a desire to take advantage of employees, but they find it hard to justify to their bosses why they did no negociate a better deal. I learned it the hard way, by trying to work part time (like 10hrs per week) while studying and then having employers unable to grasp that I was…

It is, in fact, possible that some aspect of a negotiation can be beneficial to both parties, but not for the reasons the parent suggested. If we assume that your minimum bid is in fact below their maximum offer, then the market should clear: you should get hired. Under such circumstances, anything preventing a successful conclusion to the negotiations is harmful to both parties, since there exists a price at which b…

> Under such circumstances, anything preventing a successful conclusion to the negotiations is harmful to both parties, since there exists a price at which both sides would be satisfied that they're getting more value than they're giving.

I am afraid, reality is more complicated than that. There are opportunity costs, and there are threats. (Read up about the latter in "The Strategy of Conflict".)

Threatening to do both parties damage, can give you a better deal.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#86

Post by eru »

wdewind wrote: post #40
avmich wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to other reasons, it can also be beneficial for any side to postpone this discussion for a later phase.

Yeah I mean it really depends on where you are applying to work. If you are trying to join as a senior member of an organization negotiations have way fewer rules, but if you are applying to Google etc. below a level 4 position it seems pretty reasonable to not need to assert your individuality as an engineer by disrupting the system since you'll be ending up with a standard package anyway. Sometimes you just need to…

Even at Google you should negotiate: their base is pretty standard, but the stock grants differ. A lot.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#87

Post by eru »

mikeash wrote: post #57
wdewind wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't be so literal about it. I used to get defensive about that question too, but the truth is they aren't asking you how much you are making, they are asking you to start the salary negotiation so they can get a feel for what it's going to take to hire you and describe you adequately to a hiring manager. It's just an opportunity for you both to ballpark the situation and eject early if there's going to be a wide di…

That sounds a lot like a friendly way of saying "you should lie." I don't really disagree, but we might as well be honest about it here.

Either lie or refuse to answer.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#88

Post by wmt »

executesorder66 wrote: post #77
ja27 wrote: post #51

I worked somewhere where the support manager somehow managed to get approval to bill his costs against each product group based on the lines of code in their product. We spent part of a week refactoring and reformatting to cut it by 70% before we gave him our numbers.

That's brilliant. I would love to know how he reacted and what happened next.

I really hope he was happy that his nefarious plan worked where he managed to make his job easier while improving the product.

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#89

Post by cgio »

incepted wrote: post #80
lectrick wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> recruiters Dude, that right there is the problem. They make a commission off your starting salary, so OF COURSE their primary concern is your past and future financials. This is why I hate recruiters.

I disagree. Recruiters have a conflict of interest that often goes to the candidate's advantage and against their employer's interest. The higher your salary, the higher their commission. And employers are fine with that because a good hire is better than no hire.

That is what you would expect, but they want to optimise both on commission and on throughput. If a slightly lower salary makes it easier to position you and get you hired fast, the cost of the lower commission is less than the cost of working on your case for a long time. It is the same with real estate agents. From that perspective, their knowledge of the market should theoretically set the price at the optimal short-term, hiring decision point. Nevertheless, for the employee and employer this is a long term relationship and it works out bad on both sides (lower salary than could be achieved for the employee, greater employee turnover for the employer.)

Re: -2000 Lines of Code (2004)

#90

Post by Ace17 »

hibikir wrote: post #74

It's not just old managers that dislike negative lines of code: Static analysis tools dislike them too, under the right bureaucracy. At a certain huge company that sells seeds, they decided to start having both a base test coverage target, and a specific plugin that demanded that the coverage never went back more than half a percent from the high water mark on any given project. The engineering managers thought it wa…

Great story ; I'm gonna use it at work to demonstrate the perverse effects of arbitrary tool-enforced policies!
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