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The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

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Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#81

Post by gecko »

mike_hearn wrote: post #63
gecko wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kotlin has a much simpler syntax, and much simpler semantics, than Scala. Specifically, it's largely a very, very good syntax, and small class library extension, for otherwise-vanilla alternative syntax to Java. This is the whole reason for its existence: Kotlin code cleanly interoperates, in both directions, with existing Java code. From my own experience, this means that it's very easy compared to Scala to introduc…

Just to clarify, Kotlin doesn't have a collections library. What it does have is some clever compiler magic over JDK collections that adds: • Mutable vs immutable views (List is read only, MutableList is read/write) • Safer generics: map[key] which is translated to map.get() has the type bound you would expect rather than Java's much weaker Object type. • Lots and lots of extension functions to do things like functio…

Eh, I get why my phrasing might make it sound like they had a totally separate collections hierarchy; you're right, they don't. But I'd count the changes you list--especially the extension methods, which basically provide an entire Java 8-streams-like API that runs comfortably on top of even Android's superannuated Java--as a collections library in its own right. (Hell, even the fixes they do at the compiler level to maps makes the entire collections API feel a lot more like .NET, with its reified generics, and a lot less like Java's weird situation.)

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#82

Post by vorg »

nikolay wrote: post #40

How is it better than Ceylon 1.2? Ceylon compiles to JVM bytecode, JavaScript, Dart, and will to LLVM in the future. As a language, it's a great superset of Java. I posted [0] about the great new Ceylon 1.2 (which is backed by Red Hat), and nobody seemed to care, but there's so much hype about Kotlin - I don't get it! [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10474126

> Ceylon. As a language, it's a great superset of Java

You're using the word "superset" quite loosely. A superset of Java would compile Java syntax into bytecode with all the same semantics as the equivalent Java code, as well as bring its own additions, which Ceylon clearly doesn't do. Groovy claimed to be a "superset" of Java but a handful of various syntactic elements behaved differently e.g. the == operator, catching many unawares. It's not introducing any Java 8 syntax changes, its backers flippantly saying "we'll leave them for Groovy 3". They tried to maintain a rough equivalence between the syntaxes for years by using annotations instead of new keywords, then one day its project manager changed "@Trait" to "trait" in a move that reeked of favoritism.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#83

Post by EdwardDiego »

justthistime_ wrote: post #80
EdwardDiego wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what, in the above "wall of text", is wrong about Scala or Kotlin? You're not telling what was incorrect, just that the author is _always_ incorrect, which strikes me as hyperbole.

So what, in the above "wall of text", is wrong about Scala or Kotlin? Maybe just check the responses from the last fifteen dozen times? It's not that hard. You're not telling what was incorrect, just that the author is _always_ incorrect, which strikes me as hyperbole. I'm not telling anything. The Scala and Ceylon designers did. They probably know better than me, or him.

> Maybe just check the responses from the last fifteen dozen times? It's not that hard.

So you have no valid criticism of the present statement then? Good to know.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#84

Post by zem »

nikolay wrote: post #40

How is it better than Ceylon 1.2? Ceylon compiles to JVM bytecode, JavaScript, Dart, and will to LLVM in the future. As a language, it's a great superset of Java. I posted [0] about the great new Ceylon 1.2 (which is backed by Red Hat), and nobody seemed to care, but there's so much hype about Kotlin - I don't get it! [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10474126

android! compiling to javascript, dart and llvm are all nice-to-have; there are tons of good languages that do that. there are very few good languages for writing android code, and from what i can tell, kotlin promises to do it with the fewest tradeoffs in performance, app size and tooling.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#85

Post by cartoonfoxes »

kcorbitt wrote: post #9

I've been using Kotlin on Android for about six months, and can't recommend it highly enough. If you're stuck in the Java ecosystem, Kotlin will make your life much better. I also recommend it for people coming from the world of dynamic typing (Ruby, Javascript, Python, etc.). If you can appreciate the guarantees of a static type system -- and I submit that anyone who has worked on a project of more than a few KLOC c…

The language is promising, but given the incredibly fucked-up state of the Android build tooling merely getting to the point where you can evaluate Kotlin is an exercise in extreme patience.

> The tooling is also world class, as you might expect from a language developed by JetBrains. I recommend using Kotlin with IntelliJ -- the intellisense is guaranteed to boost your productivity.

It's a sad state when IntelliJ can be considered "world class". Sadly, I've had nearly as many problems with it as I have with Eclipse. I've been thrashing about desperately trying to find any production-ready alternatives to straight Java for Android development. I will literally cry tears of joy when I do, but it's not going to be today.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#86

Post by kcorbitt »

zserge wrote: post #66
jinst8gmi wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Build times are supposed to be comparable to Java.

Build times are used to be slower, but I think recent Kotlin compilers have "daemon" mode to speed things up. I personally use Kotlin on a daily basis for Android development and build time is comparable to the one of Java. May I also recommend Anvil framework ( https://github.com/zserge/anvil )? It brings declarative layouts and data bindings, which works best with the immutable data types of Kotlin (much like React…

I also highly recommend Anvil. Anvil + Kotlin makes Android development feel sane and at times even joyous! I should write a blog about my experiences.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#87

Post by justthistime_ »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #83
justthistime_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what, in the above "wall of text", is wrong about Scala or Kotlin? Maybe just check the responses from the last fifteen dozen times? It's not that hard. You're not telling what was incorrect, just that the author is _always_ incorrect, which strikes me as hyperbole. I'm not telling anything. The Scala and Ceylon designers did. They probably know better than me, or him.

> Maybe just check the responses from the last fifteen dozen times? It's not that hard. So you have no valid criticism of the present statement then? Good to know.

What is your problem? No need to be so passive-aggressive. :-)

If you don't want to hear it right from the people who should know it best, I can't help you.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#88

Post by justthistime_ »

jinst8gmi wrote: post #58
runT1ME wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep spreading your misinformed FUD about scala every time someone mentions it in a thread. Do you really continue to maintain the position that scala is not used successfully by large teams?

Pron tends to zealously defend Java and Kotlin and bash pretty much anything else, especially Scala, but his post here today seems perfectly reasonable.

I would disagree.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#89

Post by karl_shareef »

EdwardDiego wrote: post #70
justthistime_ wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has been told by both Scala _AND_ Ceylon language developers that his large walls-of-texts are wrong and are largely made-up stuff which sounds plausible to him. Somehow he feels like he still needs to recycle his nonsense in every thread regardless of how remotely related it is to the topic.

So what, in the above "wall of text", is wrong about Scala or Kotlin? You're not telling what was incorrect, just that the author is _always_ incorrect, which strikes me as hyperbole.

It's just the regular Scala brigade that stalks and attacks anyone who dares criticize Scala, regardless of the content of the criticism. They seem to have become extra sensitive with the recent momentum that Kotlin has been gaining.

If you were wondering why the Scala community has such a bad reputation, it's because of people like them. Just ignore them. Fortunately, not all Scala users are like them.

Re: The Kotlin Language: 1.0 Beta Is Here

#90

Post by EdwardDiego »

justthistime_ wrote: post #87
EdwardDiego wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe just check the responses from the last fifteen dozen times? It's not that hard. So you have no valid criticism of the present statement then? Good to know.

What is your problem? No need to be so passive-aggressive. :-) If you don't want to hear it right from the people who should know it best, I can't help you.

You're strongly objecting to what he's saying now, but you can't tell me what is incorrect in what he said? Which strongly suggests that you're objecting to the person saying it, not the said.
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