What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#81

Post by rewqfdsa » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:07 PM UTC

dclowd9901 wrote: post #77

> Over and over, Dr. Cheryan and her colleagues have found that female students are more interested in enrolling in a computer class if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines. Sans the "general inter…

Let's suppose I worked at a desk next to yours, and one day, I brought in an elaborate lego Millennium Falcon to put next to my monitor. Would you support a policy that required me to remove this icon of geekdom in the name of making the workspace more welcoming for women?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#82

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:07 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #57

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this is bait and switch. I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction. Neither do I enjoy running around with geeky tshirts. You do not have to be nerdy to enjoy working with computers.

I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction Do you expect your colleagues not to mention or discuss these things in your presence?

How did you draw that conclusion? First of all I do not work in an environment where I do not connect with my peers, secondly I said that I do not like this culture, not that I have a problem if people do.

I just understand if poeple do not like it.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#83

Post by yummyfajitas » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:07 PM UTC

Is it true that there is a "rise of pop-culture portrayals of scientists as white or Asian male geeks"?

I've seen a little bit of TV this year - every hacker I saw was female, and most were goths. Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" and looking up the ones that are likely to have a hacker as a character, I discover "Arrow" (female hacker), NCIS (female hacker), 24 (female hacker), Criminal Minds (female hacker), Person of Interest (male and female hacker), Agents of Shield (female hacker) and The Strain (female hacker).

Why do we believe that pop culture portrays scientists or computer people this way at all?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#84

Post by vacri » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:09 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #66

gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

What a strange expectation we have here. I have a couple lawyer friends; none of them have lawyer magazine, or wear lawyer t-shirts.

Lawyers have their own 'uniforms' - they certainly don't tend to wear the normal day-to-day clothing of the general public.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#85

Post by gaius » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:09 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #66

gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

What a strange expectation we have here. I have a couple lawyer friends; none of them have lawyer magazine, or wear lawyer t-shirts.

But would anyone write an article saying that potential law students were put off by walls of law books and big mahogany desks?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#86

Post by ElComradio » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:09 PM UTC

justinsaccount wrote: post #38

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

Yep.. Read the comments on stories like this http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2015/08/09/tar... Target tries to make one step in the right direction (like making sure a chemistry set is not labeled as a BOYS chemistry set) and people respond with: "You liberal POS idiots are ruining this Country. Just because you morons don't want to think there are boys and girls, doesn't mean the rest of us with a brai…

It's important to realize that this pushback you are seeing is not because people think girls should not play with chemistry sets. It's because, in point of fact, there _is_ a cultural force out there that exists, that insists that boys and girls are blank slates and if not for antiquated belief systems, all jobs or interests would be split 50/50 across genders.

They are pushing back against the pressure to conform to this new dogma, not that they would deny any particular girl access to a "boy's things".

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#87

Post by rewqfdsa » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:10 PM UTC

Mz wrote: post #67

rewqfdsa wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's suppose that most HN readers are men. There's no obvious gender signaling in your username. (It's two letters long, after all.) What's wrong with someone using the male pronoun as a default until being corrected? Do you expect commentators to read a user's profile before choosing a pronoun for that user? That would be a big efficiency loss for no real benefit. It's unfortunate that this default bothers you, but…

It doesn't hurt my feelings. It does, however, make it harder for most women to participate here. The correct way to handle it is to either find out my gender or speak as if you do not know what it is instead of assuming I am male. If you do not know my gender, it takes very little effort to speak in a way that admits you do not know it: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2015/04/what-fool-be...

> It does, however, make it harder for most women to participate here

I've seen many people make this claim, but I haven't seen anyone back it up with evidence. What do you mean by "harder"? Do you mean "more difficult"? In what way?

Right now, I believe claims that tiny linguistic differences create meaningful barriers to female participation in technology are all specious. I could be convinced otherwise, but have seen no evidence that might move me.

> If you do not know my gender, it takes very little effort to speak in a way that admits you do not know it

English is not structured to be gender-neutral. I'm not going to use awkward circumlocutions to avoid the possibility of offending someone.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#88

Post by mpweiher » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:10 PM UTC

yummyfajitas wrote: post #83

Is it true that there is a "rise of pop-culture portrayals of scientists as white or Asian male geeks"? I've seen a little bit of TV this year - every hacker I saw was female, and most were goths. Doing a google search of "top TV 2014" and looking up the ones that are likely to have a hacker as a character, I discover "Arrow" (female hacker), NCIS (female hacker), 24 (female hacker), Criminal Minds (female hacker), P…

NCIS LA: Female hacker -> cool. Male hacker -> bumbling idiot.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#89

Post by the_mitsuhiko » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:11 PM UTC

nmrm2 wrote: post #72

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how this is bait and switch. I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction. Neither do I enjoy running around with geeky tshirts. You do not have to be nerdy to enjoy working with computers.

I think the parent was complaining that things which definitely have nothing to do with STEM fields (sci-fi and star wars) were interspersed with things that are germanely related (computer parts and tech magazines). You wouldn't fault an anatomy course for having skeletons in the room or a Physics classroom for having copies of Science laying around, so the parent argues that it's also weird to tell technology educa…

I don't think any of the things mentioned need to be in a compscie class. At least on my university neither architecture nor math departments were littered with popculture references, yet compsci was. And math and architects dressed better ;)

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#90

Post by gaius » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 9:11 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #82

gaius wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction Do you expect your colleagues not to mention or discuss these things in your presence?

How did you draw that conclusion? First of all I do not work in an environment where I do not connect with my peers, secondly I said that I do not like this culture, not that I have a problem if people do. I just understand if poeple do not like it.

That is the premise of the article.