Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth • Hacker News Board

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#81

Post by subliminalpanda » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 7:25 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #57

niyazpk wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not going to compare to disneyland, but compared to many other religious places, for example, there is no way to donate money for the cause of Hajj anywhere in Mecca or Medina. The government does not ask for your money, nor does it encourage you to donate money at the mosques. Say what you want about the Saudis, Hajj is not seen from a pure profitability standpoint as far as I can see.

Confused: who is staying in those hotels? They are free? The food is free? The travel? In one breath we hear how folks spend their life savings, and in the next that it is all a charity. Something isn't adding up.

The hotels are definitely not free. It's there to cater to the wealthy while the rest toil away in the heat.

The Saudis destroyed many sites associated with the early history of Islam to make those expansions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_early_Islamic_h...).

It's rather unfortunate that Mecca is in Saudi Arabia as it gives them free reign to preach their Salafi/Wahabi ideologies and no one else.

I come from a Shia family and many of my relatives who have gone to pilgrimage and complained of abuse by the religious police there for being in a different sect.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#82

Post by yawz » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 8:36 PM UTC

azth wrote: post #80

yawz wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "not connected to money..." Kaaba has always been about trade/commerce/money, since well before Muhammad and Islam. It is not a coincidence that Muhammad's tribe had the control of Kaaba where pagan pilgrims came before Islam to revere their many gods (whose representations (statues, icons, figures, etc.) were placed around Kaaba). And, very conveniently, it remained to be a holy place in Islam where each and every…

The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son, who were Muslims (i.e. Submitters). The fact that there was polytheistic practices around it at some point in time does not change the fact that it is a place of worship for Muslims.

> The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son...

That is mythological not truly historical.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#83

Post by azth » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 9:34 PM UTC

yawz wrote: post #82

azth wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son, who were Muslims (i.e. Submitters). The fact that there was polytheistic practices around it at some point in time does not change the fact that it is a place of worship for Muslims.

> The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son... That is mythological not truly historical.

Citation needed.

In any case, even the non-Muslim Arabs at the time also acknowledged this fact. As such, given that Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, is a descendant of Abraham, Peace be upon him, and both are Muslims, it follows that they would have similar traditions, coming from the same source. Reclaiming the Ka'abah as a place of worship for Muslims is in accordance with this.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#84

Post by yawz » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 10:33 PM UTC

azth wrote: post #83

yawz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Ka'bah was (re-)built by Abraham and his son... That is mythological not truly historical.

Citation needed. In any case, even the non-Muslim Arabs at the time also acknowledged this fact. As such, given that Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, is a descendant of Abraham, Peace be upon him, and both are Muslims, it follows that they would have similar traditions, coming from the same source. Reclaiming the Ka'abah as a place of worship for Muslims is in accordance with this.

A myth is an attempt to explain mysteries, supernatural events, and cultural traditions. Sometimes sacred in nature, a myth can involve gods or other supernatural creatures.

The fact that the same sources that assert the existence of figures such as Abraham and Ishmael also state that an angel talked to Ishmael's pregnant mother and that the Sakina (a spirit sent by God) or Gabriel guided father and son to the location of the Kaaba, etc. make this story mythical.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#85

Post by Gibbon1 » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:16 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #67

littletimmy wrote: post #3

Someone should pay more attention to preserving old heritage sites and historical structures in Mecca. The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this into a religious disneyland. What shame.

> The boorish Saudi Royal family is turning this into a religious disneyland. My guess is that they're doing it to put a Wahabbi stamp on things and erase everything else.

The Wahabbi/Salifists see destroying all that old stuff as a feature not a bug.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#86

Post by azth » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:24 PM UTC

yawz wrote: post #84

azth wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation needed. In any case, even the non-Muslim Arabs at the time also acknowledged this fact. As such, given that Prophet Muhammad, Peace be upon him, is a descendant of Abraham, Peace be upon him, and both are Muslims, it follows that they would have similar traditions, coming from the same source. Reclaiming the Ka'abah as a place of worship for Muslims is in accordance with this.

A myth is an attempt to explain mysteries, supernatural events, and cultural traditions. Sometimes sacred in nature, a myth can involve gods or other supernatural creatures. The fact that the same sources that assert the existence of figures such as Abraham and Ishmael also state that an angel talked to Ishmael's pregnant mother and that the Sakina (a spirit sent by God) or Gabriel guided father and son to the locati…

Edit: I see your point, that mythology by definition implies the supernatural.

At the same time, we have events that had elements attributed to the supernatural, which did take place, and are historically documented. The two need not be mutually exclusive.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#87

Post by asadlionpk » Mon, Oct 05, 2015, 11:33 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #38

One thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of magnitude more. This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudi…

They are doing good job on scaling it but are actually applying all the tourism practices to Makkah and ruining the essence of Hajj. They have commercialized everything which is completely opposite of what Hajj is supposed to be.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#88

Post by kartman » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 12:07 AM UTC

jawr wrote: post #65

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foreign == non-Muslim? Because somebody is staying in those hotels and its not locals, right?

Pretty sure they're aimed at the wealthier muslims who don't want to stay in crude and overcrowded camps, not at non muslims.

if you are a non muslim it is illegal to enter mecca under saudi law.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#89

Post by spacecowboy_lon » Tue, Oct 06, 2015, 1:34 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #25

spacecowboy_lon wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know I used to work for Dar Al Handasha (who designed that clock tower) and even as a non mulslim I think its a shocking way to treat they holy places.

In the west we do the same thing, e.g. just look at Niagra falls.

We haven't knocked down Stonehenge or the church of the holy nativity in Bethlehem.

To build the tower I believe they demolished the prophets mothers house!