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GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

taler.net

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Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#81

Post by AndrewBissell »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #50
atmosx wrote: post #45

I have this strange idea that once the government-agents really understand what e-payments, even block-chain-powered e-currencies bring to the table, in terms of money control, they'll embrace it. It's a no-brainer. That said, taxes are not inherently bad. Governments on the other hand... Have an awfully bad track-record of power abuse.

Several central banks are interested in cryptocurrencies because it allows them to devalue the currency from a central point. Cash is hard because it can be hoarded, therefore indirect measures are taken to devalue said currency. http://www.finextra.com/news/fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=27870 http://in.rbth.com/economics/finance/2015/09/21/rusias-bitru... http://cointelegraph.com/news/115312/azerbaijan-mulls-its-ow...

"If the controls we've imposed aren't working to revive the economy, it must mean we need to use new and ever more intrusive ones!"

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#82

Post by toomuchtodo »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #81
toomuchtodo wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several central banks are interested in cryptocurrencies because it allows them to devalue the currency from a central point. Cash is hard because it can be hoarded, therefore indirect measures are taken to devalue said currency. http://www.finextra.com/news/fullstory.aspx?newsitemid=27870 http://in.rbth.com/economics/finance/2015/09/21/rusias-bitru... http://cointelegraph.com/news/115312/azerbaijan-mulls-its-ow...

"If the controls we've imposed aren't working to revive the economy, it must mean we need to use new and ever more intrusive ones!"

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

Seriously. You have an aging population causing consumption to decline, a global recession along the horizon, ever-increasing productivity replacing the need for labor, and you think your interest rates are going to a damn bit of good? We'll need to keep interest rates at 0 just to keep the whole thing going, forget about negative interest rates (which is going to cause a run on the bank and asset bubbles in commodities, real estate, anything else that can be a value store).

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#83

Post by alkonaut »

Spivak wrote: post #57
radmuzom wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it, and without taxes modern society cannot function at all. Technologies like this would be a boon to many developing countries like mine where tax evasion and corruption is rampant. It would enable the government to collect funds for infrastructure, education, environmental protection and healthcare (and yes, I am a progressive liberal who would…

> Because unless the government can track citizen's income it cannot tax it. That's simply not true. When I do my taxes I have to report my yearly income. The kind of system where a government can monitor all of my transactions in real time is without any court involvement is insane. You might as well use your bank card as at least those require a warrant or subpoena to acquire.

> That's simply not true. When I do my taxes I have to report my yearly income.

And the reason you report your income correctly, and trust that your neighbors do too is...

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#84

Post by zerebubuth »

ijktdot wrote: post #80
hackuser wrote: post #78

Consider how valuable this could be to privacy. Governments likely will insist on a mechanism to track electronic currencies, for tax, regulatory and other reasons. Governments seem to have very little concern for privacy. So the mechanism they choose could very well ignore privacy. By building a mechanism that meets government needs and by being an early mover, Taler could be the de facto solution by the time govern…

There's a global racket in market data mining too, to track demographics and see what they are buying. This system defeats any large payment entity from payment tracking. Taler can also compete with Ukash, since it's free/open any merchant can implement their own Taler for cash business without signing large exclusive contracts with Ukash or waiting a month to be settled by them, as you can freely choose which Mint t…

> This system defeats any large payment entity from payment tracking.

Merchants of physical goods must know the identity and delivery address of their customers in order to deliver them. Given how easy many companies find it to embed 3rd party trackers or adverts on their site, it seems reasonable to believe that they will also find it easy to sell this data ("to help detect and prevent fraud") to the payment processing companies.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#85

Post by belorn »

mindcrime wrote: post #8

Unlike BitCoin or cash payments, Taler ensures that governments can easily track their citizen's income and thus collect sales, value-added or income taxes. Taler is thus a currency for the mainstream economy, and not the black market. Sounds pretty useless to me then. I would think, as technologists, we would adhere to a mindset of "we can do better". That is, we can do better than basing our society on a State appa…

If we remove the State apparatus that enforced law by the threat of violence, we will just replace it by private law that would be enforced by the threat of violence. The only way we could create a society without that is if we genetically modified everyone until no one could commit an act of aggression even if they wanted to do it.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#86

Post by dacox »

dacox wrote: post #69

> Unlike BitCoin or cash payments, Taler ensures that governments can easily track their citizen's income and thus collect sales, value-added or income taxes. Taler is thus a currency for the mainstream economy, and not the black market. This simultaneously implies that both Bitcoin and cash are not suitable for the mainstream economy. I think the opinion that cash should be given up would be fairly controversial, ev…

downvotes? Is something I said wrong?

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#87

Post by dragonwriter »

dacox wrote: post #69

> Unlike BitCoin or cash payments, Taler ensures that governments can easily track their citizen's income and thus collect sales, value-added or income taxes. Taler is thus a currency for the mainstream economy, and not the black market. This simultaneously implies that both Bitcoin and cash are not suitable for the mainstream economy. I think the opinion that cash should be given up would be fairly controversial, ev…

> This simultaneously implies that both Bitcoin and cash are not suitable for the mainstream economy.

No, it implies that Bitcoin and cash are both alike in not simultaneously being:

(a) suitable for the mainstream economy, and (b) not suitable for the black market.

It neither states nor strongly implies which of those two things bitcoin or cash fail on (nor does it state or strongly apply that they each fail on the same one of those two things), though there's a fairly weak implication that Bitcoin and cash both fail on the second (that, whether or not they are suitable for the mainstream economy, they are quite suitable for the black market.)

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#88

Post by mindcrime »

afshin wrote: post #52
mindcrime wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

roads have been built by governments using tax revenue since history began Some roads have been built by government... not all where, and not all are even now. I'll posit that a significant number of Americans drive on at least one private road every single day. Chances are, if you live in any kind of suburban housing subdivision, the road right in front of your house actually wasn't created, and isn't maintained, by…

It may be that the disagreement you're encountering is based on your acceptance of the premise that taxes are collected at gunpoint. It's extending a principle to an extreme logical conclusion and appealing to a formulaic interpretation of the world. It is divorced from the real world and makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

It's not even slightly divorced from the real world. If you don't "pay your taxes" they will eventually send men with guns to confiscate your property and/or arrest you. And if you try to protect yourself, said "men with guns" will fucking shoot you dead. That is reality. And it's absolutely horrifying.

Re: GNU Taler – Electronic payments for a liberal society

#90

Post by room271 »

choffman wrote: post #25

No thank you. With regards to my government, I would like to see more privacy rather than less. This seems to give me less. I do like the idea of complete transactional privacy between end users and/or merchants. But we already have this today with CryptoNote based cryptocurrencies like Monero - with optional transparency through "view keys".

As far as I understand it, Taler seems to be great for privacy and society (ensuring income is taxable). Governments can't see how you spend your money, but they can see who receives payments.

Bitcoin and others will never succeed because they are too friendly towards illicit behaviour. Taler seems to strike a genuinely interesting and ethical balance here.

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