Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back • Hacker News Board

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#81

Post by interesting_att » Fri, Sep 18, 2015, 11:30 PM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #17

buffoon wrote: post #2

My wife was nearly a victim of this particular drug in the late 1990s. They have no idea how much shit they caused people by withholding this information. Several years of people's lives destroyed. I doubt they will acknowledge it or even apologise let alone offer compensation. When I say they, I don't mean the faceless corporation or brand, but the individuals who made this decision, ran the initial trials and pushe…

>> When I say they, I don't mean the faceless corporation or brand, but the individuals who made this decision... Hopefully they're scared shitless right now because of the talk around the GM recall case. Politicians are throwing around the idea of criminal charges because they didn't disclose safety problems soon enough. My first thought was "what about pharma?" Not sure what I think of the idea, but some folks in p…

The Big Pharma lobby is easily the most powerful lobby in the country. Most other industries have at least part of one party against it. Many (but far from all) democratic politicians are critical of the oil industry, Monsanto, the military industry, finance industry, prison industry, Walmart, etc.

With the pharmaceutical industry, however, there is no such check. To go against Pharma as a Republican is to go against big business. To go against Pharma as a Democrat is to go against "Science." Add millions and millions spent on lobbying and deceptive PR, you have a very powerful lobby.

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#82

Post by interesting_att » Fri, Sep 18, 2015, 11:38 PM UTC

throwaway98031 wrote: post #50

acveilleux wrote: post #3

I use to work in pharma research (at the data acquisition and analysis side, blinded from treatment) and the fact that pharmas are able to start clinical trials and then shut them down without reporting result is a problem. The folks who make those decision usually have access to unblinded data and in the least objectionable case they do it due to lack of efficacy but you never know. Maybe they found a side-effect an…

> pharmas are able to start clinical trials and then shut them down without reporting result is a problem. As you've worked in the industry, I'm curious: What do you think could remedy this situation? Forcing all registered clinical trials to release all of their data seems like the obvious solution. We still need the ability to shut down clinical trials if unexpected side effects such as increased suicide rates appe…

More than mandatory release, we need to:

1) Have full transparency of the placebos being used. Many studies that are published don't fully disclose the placebo being used. Full release should really mean full release.

2) Movement way from the for-profit journal system to a not-for-profit system, to prevent obvious conflicts of interest. Full release means nothing if the means in which information travels is biased.

3) Reining in the benefits pharmaceutical companies can give researchers and doctors. A number of studies have shown even the smallest of gifts can change a doctor's propensity to prescribe a specific drug. Surprisingly this can be as powerful as a journal article.

4) Passing real legislation to reduce the revolving door between the FDA and the rest of the medical industry to prevent a number of other problems.

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#83

Post by cma » Fri, Sep 18, 2015, 11:54 PM UTC

throwaway98031 wrote: post #16

marincounty wrote: post #4

Now let's find out if this anti-depressant really helps anyone, or is it just another terrible drug with horrid side effects? If it doesn't help better than placebo; take it off the market? Let's throw out all those lousy studies that were done in the 90's and later? Let's start fresh--study these antidepressants, and get rid of them(adolescents, adults alike) if they really don't help anyone besides doctors, and dru…

> Now let's find out if this anti-depressant really helps anyone, or is it just another terrible drug with horrid side effects? If it doesn't help better than placebo; take it off the market? The claim that SSRIs are no better than placebo is increasingly popular on the internet and among some researchers eager to make headlines, but the claim is not backed by the data. At best, it represents a misunderstanding of ho…

That article is terrible to bring up here. He says suicide is a risk but would take a whole 'nother article and leaves it at that. At one point he uses anecdotal data of his own experience and gives it statistical weight by invoking the anthropic principle. What??

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#84

Post by tsotha » Sat, Sep 19, 2015, 12:43 AM UTC

throwaway98031 wrote: post #50

acveilleux wrote: post #3

I use to work in pharma research (at the data acquisition and analysis side, blinded from treatment) and the fact that pharmas are able to start clinical trials and then shut them down without reporting result is a problem. The folks who make those decision usually have access to unblinded data and in the least objectionable case they do it due to lack of efficacy but you never know. Maybe they found a side-effect an…

> pharmas are able to start clinical trials and then shut them down without reporting result is a problem. As you've worked in the industry, I'm curious: What do you think could remedy this situation? Forcing all registered clinical trials to release all of their data seems like the obvious solution. We still need the ability to shut down clinical trials if unexpected side effects such as increased suicide rates appe…

The obvious response for companies if they're forced to release all data is to stop doing any trials on approved drugs.

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#85

Post by tsotha » Sat, Sep 19, 2015, 12:47 AM UTC

interesting_att wrote: post #81

phkahler wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When I say they, I don't mean the faceless corporation or brand, but the individuals who made this decision... Hopefully they're scared shitless right now because of the talk around the GM recall case. Politicians are throwing around the idea of criminal charges because they didn't disclose safety problems soon enough. My first thought was "what about pharma?" Not sure what I think of the idea, but some folks in p…

The Big Pharma lobby is easily the most powerful lobby in the country. Most other industries have at least part of one party against it. Many (but far from all) democratic politicians are critical of the oil industry, Monsanto, the military industry, finance industry, prison industry, Walmart, etc. With the pharmaceutical industry, however, there is no such check. To go against Pharma as a Republican is to go against…

>With the pharmaceutical industry, however, there is no such check. To go against Pharma as a Republican is to go against big business. To go against Pharma as a Democrat is to go against "Science."

There are very, very few true ideologues in Congress. The real reason is more prosaic - they won't cross big pharma because they need money for reelection.

Incidentally, the other industries you've listed don't have parties against them. They spread money around on both sides of the aisle.

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#86

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 19, 2015, 12:55 AM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #69

seiji wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical problems are difficult to class action because they are so distributed and so private. Earlier this year a doctor killed a family member of mine by telling her, across multiple visits in the same week, her swollen ankle was a sprain and to just rest. It was actually a blood clot due to being overweight and on birth control pills. The day after her last visit, she threw a PE and died alone on her couch. Anothe…

That's unfortunate and sad. But we were talking about researchers and bureaucrats with data, whose job is making data driven decisions, and then ignoring or hiding some of the data.

[deleted]

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#87

Post by Asbostos » Sat, Sep 19, 2015, 12:55 AM UTC

phkahler wrote: post #69

seiji wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Medical problems are difficult to class action because they are so distributed and so private. Earlier this year a doctor killed a family member of mine by telling her, across multiple visits in the same week, her swollen ankle was a sprain and to just rest. It was actually a blood clot due to being overweight and on birth control pills. The day after her last visit, she threw a PE and died alone on her couch. Anothe…

That's unfortunate and sad. But we were talking about researchers and bureaucrats with data, whose job is making data driven decisions, and then ignoring or hiding some of the data.

It's true it's a bit off topic, but I think it's closely related. Both doctors and researchers are causing deaths and neither has any accountability. Doctors are perhaps a bigger problem. In general, they're simply not competent at their job as seen by examples like this. There are no checks and balances to keep them competent. Perhaps their job really is too difficult for a human to do but then they should be honest about that and tell the patient "I don't really understand your condition, and all I can think of is ..."

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#88

Post by AJ007 » Sat, Sep 19, 2015, 3:05 AM UTC

existencebox wrote: post #14

xlm1717 wrote: post #12

I've been seeing this pop up on all the major news outlets and science websites, but still have not seen one mention of the side effect that may be behind both increased risk of suicide and increased risk of violent behavior: akathisia. Akathisia is a side effect of antidepressants that causes an intense inner restlessness and inability to sit still. This can cause agonizing pain and terrible anxiety, and people can…

What concerns me as much as the initial side effects is your last paragraph, and the sentiment surrounding it. Benzos have been known to have some additional significant neurological consequences in the long term, and have always felt to me like a rather large sledgehammer for the problems they often treat. As such, "your behavior-modifying drugs give you a side effect so we'll shove more powerful drugs in your face"…

How many studies check the effects of patients taking two, three, or more medications?

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#89

Post by Zigurd » Sat, Sep 19, 2015, 3:37 AM UTC

cryoshon wrote: post #31

cantstop wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had medicine induced akathisia before and it was by far the worst thing I've experienced in my life. Unless you've had it yourself, there is no way to convey just how terrible it actually is. I can easily see why people would want to die when facing this. I've heard this is used as a form of torture in some countries. Being strapped down and injected with a medication that induces akathisia would make the most h…

Interesting, got a source that you had in mind for that torture claim? I'd like to read more.

The Soviets engaged in systematic abuse of psychiatric confinement and medication as a weapon against dissidents.

Re: Analysis of Antidepressant Paxil Finds Data on Teen Risk Was Held Back

#90

Post by interesting_att » Sat, Sep 19, 2015, 5:58 AM UTC

tsotha wrote: post #85

interesting_att wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Big Pharma lobby is easily the most powerful lobby in the country. Most other industries have at least part of one party against it. Many (but far from all) democratic politicians are critical of the oil industry, Monsanto, the military industry, finance industry, prison industry, Walmart, etc. With the pharmaceutical industry, however, there is no such check. To go against Pharma as a Republican is to go against…

>With the pharmaceutical industry, however, there is no such check. To go against Pharma as a Republican is to go against big business. To go against Pharma as a Democrat is to go against "Science." There are very, very few true ideologues in Congress. The real reason is more prosaic - they won't cross big pharma because they need money for reelection. Incidentally, the other industries you've listed don't have parti…

Many Democrats are against the Keystone pipeline and are for solar subsidies. Many Democrats are against the big banks (Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren). Military defense contractors pay a lot, but many Democrats vote against military expenditures.

How many Democrats are critical of pharmaceutical companies? Barely any.