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A United States of Europe? Good Luck

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Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#81
post #7
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). At least Germany, Spain, Italy, France have evolved from a myriad of city states, duchy, great fief, that have been unified, conquered, inherited, etc to form a bigger central power. European separatist movement are usually basing their claims on these previous histori…

Same thing for Sweden, but I guess most modern countries are a result of unification of lesser city states/countries

I suppose at the time of Sweden's unification it was more about subjugating ones political enemies on horseback rather than attempting to harmonize the existing processes of a huge number of modern polities. Yield! Kneel! Pay your taxes! - and then off to the next battle.

They spoke the same language, it was basically happening in the context of feudal system which was from the point of view of the operations of government modular - basically the whole political system supported pretty well constant shifting of the ruling body - I kneel to you, they kneel to me, and I give you some grain and provide men in time of war. And ruling was pretty simple back then.

Before 1600:s the function of government was basically the king. After they figured out there must be a better way to rule than riding ones bottom sore ruling and taxing about modern state functions began to emerge. I believe this was at the time of Gustavus Adolphus II in sweden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustavus_Adolphus_of_Sweden).

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU parliament doesn't elect, if you don't understand the difference between appointment and confirmation I can't help you. The EU council and commission can issue directives, decisions and regulations without involving the EU parliament, the EUP is mostly for show it's opinions and recommendations are shafted there's a good reason why it looks like a circus filled with Neo-Nazi's/Fascists and Marxists (or at leas…

> The EU parliament doesn't elect, if you don't understand the difference between appointment and confirmation I can't help you. You're making a distinction without a difference (and you're muddying the waters between a proposal to appoint and the actual appointment ; without the European Parliament, the European Council can only propose, not appoint). If the European Parliament says yes, the Commission is elected an…

You over estimate or intentionally over represent the power of the EUP in the confirmation of the council, for the most part it's a formality. The power to nominate is by far more important than a approval.

As far the the legislation goes again you are mixing the various types of legislation codified within EU law, Regulations and Directives can only come from the council, Decisions and Recommendations can only come from the commission, Opinions like well the old saying says can be made by all 3 bodies. For the most part outside of mostly formal proceeding the EUP only issues opinions nothing more, Directives are the most common issue of EU law as they leave room for member state to decide how to "interpret" and implement them, the only really binding EU law is Regulations which can only be adopted by the Council the EUP doesn't get to vote on it.

You need to understand that for the most part no one gives a flying fuck about the EUP what matters is the council the council is the one that represents the Governments of each of the member states they are the ones that make the decisions. The EUP is full of people who are non-electable in state level politics and no serious politician actually wants to get involved with the EUP there's no glory, no power, and no money in play there.

You can continue arguing about semantics but you need to understand that there's much more to politics than de-jure agency if you look at every political system in the world you'll find that often the majority of the power tends to fall into the hands of positions and bodies that might not or should not have power at all on paper, the US politics are a great example for it.

As far as the EU goes the only thing that matters in terms of de-facto policy is what the Governments of the member states want no some yahoos that got elected in elections that no one really cares about with 40% or some times less turn out, and the treaties that the EU is based on leave gaping holes to ensure that member states keep their sovereignty and agency because outside of a very few or well actually one state with so far suicidal social and political tendencies most member states still value their sovereignty over unity and considering the Euro-skepticism within most state level political systems these days it is not going to change any time soon.

Have a nice day.

P.S.

ai16 Special legislative procedures

Special legislative procedures replace the former consultative, cooperation and assent procedures. The objective is to simplify the EU’s decision-making process by making it clearer and more effective. As their name indicates, these procedures derogate from the ordinary legislative procedure and therefore constitute exceptions. In special legislative procedures, the Council of the EU is, in practice, the sole legislator. The European Parliament is simply associated with the procedure. Its role is thus limited to consultation or approval depending on the case. Unlike the ordinary legislative procedure, the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU does not give a precise description of special legislative procedures. The rules of special legislative procedures are therefore defined on an ad hoc basis by the Articles of the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU that provide for their implementation.

And no there isn't much limit on the "special legislative procedure" for the most part the council can enact it at any point which is why even when the ordinary legislative procedure is used the role of the parliament is much more formal and official.

This is one of those many many loopholes I've talked about that pretty much allow the Governments of the member states to have full control over the union and not vice-versa. If you still want to argue, well have a nice day again!

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#83
post #16
post #3

I have not yet met an analysis that would explain why a huge governmental body to politically rule the entire Europe would be a good thing. Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Most successful large systems grow organically and with time or are forced into a unified whole by a huge effort at control. And th…

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). I'm writing from Bath in the UK where Edgar, the first king of England, was crowned in 973. This united the ancient kingdoms of Wessex, Mercia, East Anglia etc. Thankfully we've become more democratic since then, but until the EU was founded in 1993, Europe was an anar…

You do realize your spiel could be used to market any of the conquests of the past centuries - unite under MY banner, and we shall have piece...

Britain is pretty swell, after a thousand years of dominating cultural hegemony. Although some scots may disagree. And some Irish perhaps. Not too many people speak the old tongues.

A typical dynamic in a large polity such as a nation or a corporation is that there will be a single culturally distinguishable leading elite class, and a) this elite will favor it's own (not maliciously, but because they are human and favor familiarity) and b) the people who do not actively recent the ruling elite will try to emulate them. So, in time, if the dominion can remain civil, it will develop an understanding and a common cultural framework.

Talking of civility - historically, britain has been unable to hold to lands that it could not hold under the force of violence. American colonies. India. South Africa.

People love their sovereignty (or, people yearn for political power and use sovereignty as their rallying cry). Anyhow - if the cultural hegemony cannot overwhelm a territory there will be a constant pressure to cede. I think this understanding of history is what drove many of the genocides of the past century - political will to rule, at any cost.

With this view of history uniting the earth under a single government would require either a single monoculture, or a dictatorial rule forcing a cultural homogenization over generations until the dissenting voices have diminished to insignificance.

Perhaps our beloved internet will function as a vehicle of such homogenization - it's not completely impossible.

Note: There was no large war in europe between the napoleonic wars and the first world war. Historically, europe has been quite pieceful in the past without a huge bureaucracy attempting to to formulate everything under it's legalistic framework.

I believe in western concept of human rights, and I do not believe in cultural relativism - oppression is oppression. But, a world government is a concept that is very problematic in our current state in history. I have no idea if this will change.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). The Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Byzantine Empire, British Empire and the USA spring to mind. All large states/empires are a patchwork of previously autonomous bodies, in fact most nation states are also formed in the same way, though of course they later usually manufa…

For the purposes of determining if a United States of Europe is viable, I think the US is not necessarily a great example. After all, it took two devastating wars (the Civil War and WW2) to truly centralize federal power / exhibit great power organization in the way it does today.

United States was also intentionally grown over centuries, mostly as a single polity. Systems design is hard - takes time, takes effort to fix any bugs. US might be one the most painstakingly designed/constructed systems in the modern times.

China figured their system out when the pyramids were built and has basically been ruled using the same principles ever since.

The thing is, these things take time because they require a cultural context where the motivations and the dynamic of the people can be understood and made to cooperate.

These time and culture aspects make the concept of the united states of europe feel quite fantastical.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#85
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'd be surprised to know the similarities between India and Pakistan, culturally. The differences are based on ideologies, but the cultures are quite similar.

And yet even there they chose to split off. The subject requires deeper examination.

Muslims vs. hindus. There were lots of political issues when britain ceded the Raj - but basically one of the driving factors for an independent Pakistan was escalation of political friction between factions representing hindus and muslims.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#86
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is not doing too well.

England. The UK. France. Germany. The USA. The list of "[countries] patched together from previously autonomous bodies" happens to be an incredibly huge subset of countries that exist today.

That's a good list of the remmants of dismembered entities, with the exception of the USA, which is relatively young.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). The Roman Empire, Ottoman Empire, Byzantine Empire, British Empire and the USA spring to mind. All large states/empires are a patchwork of previously autonomous bodies, in fact most nation states are also formed in the same way, though of course they later usually manufa…

That is an incredibly superficial treatment of the subject that not only fails to mention that these empire fell, but also some of the relevant reasons why. It also fails to distinguish between the formation of nations and the formation of empires and the processes by which they can and do occur. Furthermore, it trivializes the substance and significance of national identity. National identity is very fundamental and…

That is an incredibly superficial treatment of the subject that not only fails to mention that these empire fell...Furthermore, it trivializes the substance and significance of national identity.

All empires fall. National identity is an invention of the 19C, hardly an ever-enduring truth. I'd prefer to think the above comment was succinct, not superficial :)

Re upending national identity, if you investigate the list of empires given, you'll see that in fact it is quite possible to meld separate states/cultures into one political state given enough time - for example India in the British empire was a mass of competing principates prior to British rule, and is now a functioning democracy encompassing a huge variety of cultures, languages, religions and on the scale of Europe what you might call nations. The German empire was a similar patchwork prior to unification in 1871. The Ottoman or Roman empires are also good examples of this.

Your hostility to the EU project seems to make you want to declare it impossible, and perhaps it is flawed, but it's clearly not impossible, or even very unusual, to subsume existing states into something bigger.

The morality or desirability of it is an entirely separate question.

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#89
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically, realms that have been patched together from previously autonomous bodies have not done too well (I would appreciate counter examples). Spain

Is not doing too well.

perhaps in 400 years USA won't do wel

Re: A United States of Europe? Good Luck

#90
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

England. The UK. France. Germany. The USA. The list of "[countries] patched together from previously autonomous bodies" happens to be an incredibly huge subset of countries that exist today.

That's a good list of the remmants of dismembered entities, with the exception of the USA, which is relatively young.

The USA is also a remnant of a dismembered entity (or rather composed of one).

I can't think of any country that has remained exactly the same throughout history. Nearly every country out there is either an agglomeration of formerly independent entities or used to be part of a bigger entity at some point.

Your categories are useless. Unless you're trying to define categories for countries which don't exist.

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