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Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

brewster.kahle.org

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Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#81
post #73
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only mechanism I'm aware of that truly allows anonymity over your own connection (or a connection that can be tied to you) is onion routing. On top of that, you must do it from a separate device or isolated VM to prevent hardware fingerprinting. Anything less than that is like using snake oil crypto: it might make you feel good, but it's not really there.

Onion routing is an anonymity mechanism for low-latency communications; there could be other mechanisms that are as good or better for some settings of high-latency communications. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mix_network

Not that you are wrong, but essentially mixmaster routing of email is essentially oninon routing at the mail protocol level (as opposed to at the IP level).

I think it makes perfect sense to call it "onion routing of email" or something along those lines -- we generally do talk about "routing emails" (as in from email program to local smtp server, from local smtp server via an ISP smtp server, then lookup via DNS for MX record, on to the gateway smtp server, and so on to the final destination(s)).

[ed: Not to mention one thing probably stays the same: who runs the best, free onion routers/gateways and mixmaster servers? Intelligence agencies...

http://veps.hypertekst.net/misc/anon-remail/

]

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#82
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why are micropayments worse than the current web? People have differing opinions on the advertising-pays-for-content-so-don't-block-it issue, but are you referring to something technical?

Multiple reasons, though many boil down to Gresham's Law or similar: it's difficult to assess the quality of information, particularly when disaggregated. Most media advances have occurred through bundling rather than unbundling options: magazines, books (collected parchments, monthly serials), subscriptions. Even advertising-supported broadcast and Web models work by aggregating product, though in this case, eyeball…

With apologies for not reading all the references you list before asking:

> it's difficult to assess the quality of information, particularly when disaggregated.

Do you mean that it's difficult in general, or in terms of "should I buy this"? I could see micropayments work similar to Kindle - a 24 hour no-questions, semi-automatic refund policy. Don't think that article was worth 50 cent? Just "unpay" for it.

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#83
post #50
post #49

I'm happy to see this article, and it reminds me of things that others have been talking about for some time (for example, the "Redecentralize" community). I've participated in some file-sharing litigation which has made it very clear to me that decentralized P2P systems are not inherently more anonymous than other technologies. In fact, there's a cottage industry of P2P monitoring companies that participate as peers…

The only mechanism I'm aware of that truly allows anonymity over your own connection (or a connection that can be tied to you) is onion routing. On top of that, you must do it from a separate device or isolated VM to prevent hardware fingerprinting. Anything less than that is like using snake oil crypto: it might make you feel good, but it's not really there.

For email there are various mixmail systems I strongly suspect you're far more familiar with than me.

A recent talk (I don't recall the conference) on de-anonymising anonlymous online communications shows sharp limits to even this, though there is some workfactor required. Better than nothing.

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#84
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple reasons, though many boil down to Gresham's Law or similar: it's difficult to assess the quality of information, particularly when disaggregated. Most media advances have occurred through bundling rather than unbundling options: magazines, books (collected parchments, monthly serials), subscriptions. Even advertising-supported broadcast and Web models work by aggregating product, though in this case, eyeball…

With apologies for not reading all the references you list before asking: > it's difficult to assess the quality of information, particularly when disaggregated. Do you mean that it's difficult in general, or in terms of "should I buy this"? I could see micropayments work similar to Kindle - a 24 hour no-questions, semi-automatic refund policy. Don't think that article was worth 50 cent? Just "unpay" for it.

It's difficult for a number of reasons, which I spell out in the essay you've failed to read:

Market mechanisms work best where goods are uniform (either individually or on aggregate average), their qualities are readily determined (or again tend to average out well), where the fixed costs of production are low and marginal costs of production high (relative to one another), and externalities, both positive and negative, are small relative to market price.

Information goods violate virtually all these assumptions.

● Quality is highly variable.

● Quality assessment is difficult, and often frustrated by other factors (e.g., pay-to-publish journals, "friendly" colleague peer reviews, discussed recently by Joerg Fliege at The Other Place).

● Quality isn't, and often cannot, be known in advance.

● Variance of individual instances is high enough that averages rarely suffice.

● Fixed costs of production are high, particularly for research, also to an extent for selection, review, and editing.

● Variable costs of production (e.g., publication) are low. In fact we're utilizing a system which was specifically created to reduce those costs still further, Tim Berners-Lee's World Wide Web, developed to transmit physics papers between CERN, SLAC, and other related facilities.

● Information goods typically have very high positive externalities -- they benefit those who don't directly consume them. Occasionally they have high negative externalities -- e.g., smallpox, "superflu", or weapons research.

There's the question of what does a content payment scheme provide? Of which the answer is, generally, "an incentive to create content". What matters isn't whether or not each individual information trasnfer is equitably priced, but whether, at some reasonable interval (e.g., at years' end) you've got sufficient compensation for authors, researchers, reporters, etc., to provide an adequate supply of information and entertainment.

When distribution was on physical media, printing and transactional sales were reasonably appropriate. With the price of reproduction* approaching zero, but nonzero fixed costs of production, there's an inherent conflict in the mechanisms which allow for price discovery in markets.

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#85
post #37
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First...IANAL (I Am Not A Lawyer) You aren't the only one, but with Freenet it's fully encrypted. Let's say you had a Freenet Silk Road application. You won't know it's a Silk Road web page that's being saved along with images of marijuana to your computer unless you go through an indexer/search site and even then you still won't know that those bits of data are stored specifically on your machine. So in order for th…

Not talking about the legal aspects, but, (and I really, really hate to bring up the "think about the children!" argument here) what about if I am unknowingly helping people who create and share child porn? It doesn't matter (to me) if I am on the hook for it or not, I just don't know (ethically?) how I would feel if I knew that was going on via my PC. Drugs I don't give a shit about, and I hate how the "think about…

It all reduces down to this: tech X can enable Y evil things so should we allow X to exist? Interstates were a good example as traffickers depend heavily on them. Cameras are vital to spread of child porn online. Printing presses and printers if not that. Pencils if it gets down to sketching. They're even doing animated stuff according to some sources: there goes any non-locked-down video game system. Traffickers also use cars, 18 wheelers, trains, and boats.

The tool/tech X can aid evil Y is weak because the good from X far outweighs Y. There's always an evil minority. Obsessive people motivated by control or money will find a way to act on those motivations. They'll use whatever tools are at their disposal. We shouldn't stop having freedom, privacy, Internet anonymity, etc w/ all the benefits because an abuse might happen. That you possessed or sold a technology someone might have abused is on them, not you. And they're pretty good at getting away with it even without anonymity tools or crypto.

But, believe me, most Americans are happy to abuse the hell out of children with tech so long as it's the foreign children building America's tech for 10-12 hr straight at horrid wages and conditions to make that tech cheaper. ;) What you worry about is at record lows and what I just mentioned is at record highs. American double standard, just them worrying about the wrong things, or both?

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#86
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With apologies for not reading all the references you list before asking: > it's difficult to assess the quality of information, particularly when disaggregated. Do you mean that it's difficult in general, or in terms of "should I buy this"? I could see micropayments work similar to Kindle - a 24 hour no-questions, semi-automatic refund policy. Don't think that article was worth 50 cent? Just "unpay" for it.

It's difficult for a number of reasons, which I spell out in the essay you've failed to read: Market mechanisms work best where goods are uniform (either individually or on aggregate average), their qualities are readily determined (or again tend to average out well), where the fixed costs of production are low and marginal costs of production high (relative to one another), and externalities, both positive and negat…

Right. But it's easy, after reading an article,to decide: this was interesting: I don't need my quarter/dollar back?

Granted most posts are crap, and also probably most of the stuff that's worth a quarter to some are not worth it to most. But publicatuon is free - if one million people doesn't pay for your book, that's fine if 5000 pays an average of 20 USD for it?

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#87
post #49

I'm happy to see this article, and it reminds me of things that others have been talking about for some time (for example, the "Redecentralize" community). I've participated in some file-sharing litigation which has made it very clear to me that decentralized P2P systems are not inherently more anonymous than other technologies. In fact, there's a cottage industry of P2P monitoring companies that participate as peers…

Back in 2008 I was studying P2P networks. I've made a BitTorrent crawler by duct taping v8 and libevent (there was no node.js at the time). It took about 5 minutes to scan a fresh Dexter swarm of about 100K peers. Then, I had all the IP addresses and plenty of metadata (download progress, software used, etc)

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#88
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's difficult for a number of reasons, which I spell out in the essay you've failed to read: Market mechanisms work best where goods are uniform (either individually or on aggregate average), their qualities are readily determined (or again tend to average out well), where the fixed costs of production are low and marginal costs of production high (relative to one another), and externalities, both positive and negat…

Right. But it's easy, after reading an article,to decide: this was interesting: I don't need my quarter/dollar back? Granted most posts are crap, and also probably most of the stuff that's worth a quarter to some are not worth it to most . But publicatuon is free - if one million people doesn't pay for your book, that's fine if 5000 pays an average of 20 USD for it?

Consider two schemes for payment of content.

A: You must decide, for each piece of data or information you consume, whether and how much it is worth to you. I'll note that in this discussion, not only did you not pay to read a work, but you couldn't even be bothered to click a link to examine it. Which, actually, I applaud as a rational behavior: the odds of being rewarded with quality content by following an arbitrary link posted on an Internet discussion site by someone who's preferred description is "space alien cat" is fairly low.

But it also rather handily demonstrates the specific failure mode of micropayments.

B: Information is paid out of a general cultural tax, apportioned by wealth or income. You may access as much (or as little) of the availed information as you choose. Creators are paid according to the access and performance of their works, tracked by one or more monitoring services.

Under the first scheme, there are numerous issues: the rich and poor have vastly different information access, as do children. Researchers who might reference many works (though often only in brief fragments) would have tremendous data charges, as might musicians or authors or photographsers, who typically have large reference libraries of relevant works. Those who don't directly consume information but benefit by its effects on society as a whole pay nothing. Remixes of works would be difficult to arrange given complex rights negotiations.

Under the second scheme, there's no concern at the time of access whether or not the work is worth paying for (though in circumstances where you're accessing physical resources or premeses: a book, a recording, a performance venue) you would still typically pay. Children and the poor would have as much access as any other. Researchers and artists could reference works as needed without concern as to cost. Remixes of works would be straightforward. Payment would be made regularly throughout the year.

At first blush, scheme A describes what we have today, and scheme B is a utopian broadband tax / content syndication scheme. Actually, this is entirely backwards: scheme B is largely the system we have in place today, except that instead of a government-imposed tax, it's one based on advertisers and paid through higher prices for goods purchased regularly throughout the year. Total advertising spending in the United States is $181 billion per year -- $567 per person in 2014.[1] Artists are paid through either ratings-based metrics for music, or according to negotiated television contracts for actors, screenwriters, and such. There's one key difference though: under an advertising-based system, it's ultimately the advertiser who calls the shots on content, and content is geared to maximise advertising-based appeal. This shapes both the types of works produced and the topics covered.

A broadband tax approach changes one element of this: how revenues are collected. It's either through an access provider (your ISP, cable, or broadband service), or through a public tax imposed independently. Allocate some or all of the $567 per-person advertising cost presently collected, and it would be transferred directly to authors, composers, musicians, actors, reporters, researchers, etc. Without the advertising middleman.

Your micropayments scheme requires a middleman and payment processor, trusted by both crators and consumers, some way of providing for refunds, and the somewhat problematic issue that there are limited capabilities to suck out any information you might have acquired but decided after the fact that you weren't interested in actually paying for. At least, without inflicting possible brain damage. How do I keep you from copying my book, or music, or photos, or movie?

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Notes:

1. US Advertising!spend!statisics: http://galbithink.org/ad-spending.htm

http://carisesuatu.loomhost.com/cari/Annual_Advertising_Spen...

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/the-united-states-to...

Re: Locking the Web Open: A Call for a Distributed Web

#89
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. But it's easy, after reading an article,to decide: this was interesting: I don't need my quarter/dollar back? Granted most posts are crap, and also probably most of the stuff that's worth a quarter to some are not worth it to most . But publicatuon is free - if one million people doesn't pay for your book, that's fine if 5000 pays an average of 20 USD for it?

Consider two schemes for payment of content. A: You must decide, for each piece of data or information you consume, whether and how much it is worth to you. I'll note that in this discussion, not only did you not pay to read a work, but you couldn't even be bothered to click a link to examine it. Which, actually, I applaud as a rational behavior: the odds of being rewarded with quality content by following an arbitra…

First, I didn't realize the first link was by you - I did read it prior to my previous response.

I think you overestimate the complexity of refundable (for "regret" reasons) micropayments. Both Amazon and Google play handle this fine.

I don't see why one would need to go back and get a refund for a quarter or dollar spent weeks ago; have a "pay to access - refunds as wanted (imediatly) after reading. In essence keep payments un escrow for 24-48 hours; with buyer opt-out.

> How do I keep you from copying my book, or music, or photos, or movie?

Why would you care? Go after systematic/for-profit copyright breach through the legal system - enjoy the rest as free publucity? If a link to pay could be embedded (eg: a pay: url scheme - it might be easy (enough) for readers (both in the people sense and application sende) to opt-in to paying. Register the hash in your library when you've decided to pay or refund; have the app commit to paying based on the list that's maintained in your account. The account could be with a payment broker, like itunes/amazon/google - or just a file. In case of a file you'd need to have the/an app look up the hash and follow some instructions for payment.

Your concerns wrt monitoring are valid; but not sure they're worse than what we seem to be moving towards.

[ed: re failure of micropayments - wouldn't someone not buying/paying for something they do not want be a win for micropayments? This would be similar for ads anyway? No view; no ad revenue?

But with ads, I can't get back my "ad view". If I read something (or started to) - and realised this isn't interesting - I could "unspend" a micropayment - let those that like content support it - but stop rewarding "eyeballs". Because that seems like a terrible quality measure (or measure of value-add/price).]

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