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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still can't believe we have hundreds of years of documented history to learn from, yet human intelligence is still blinded by bigotry.

I will stake the claim, as an engineer never having studied sociology, that in group favoritism is the (only) stable political arrangement by and large… and further, the preservation of any culture necessitates discrimination of some sort.

You've got it backwards. That's a defeatist take that results in the exact kind of misery and cruelty documented in detail throughout history. Society prospers when people look past their differences and work together to improve things. It suffers when demagogues successfully divide the public and exploit the chaos to loot the resources required to improve the lives of everyone. Making punching bags out of a group of people is sure way to create instability.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy European unity works well in a world of mostly-stable populations. Having mass migrations from large, relatively empty countries, to pretty full ones, is going to make the full ones increasingly expensive to make housing for, to power, and to water.

Where are the full ones? Working age population is decreasing in Europe. It's only really major cities that suffer under development, and even among them it's just some, not the majority. And despite all the bitching, even extra-EU immigrants are a huge resource for most European countries. In Italy e.g. extra-EU immigrants contribute to 14% of taxes and receive less than 2% of benefits, as many of them come here as…

    > In Italy e.g. extra-EU immigrants contribute to 14% of taxes and receive less than 2% of benefits
This is wild. Who are they and what kind of work are they doing? I would like to learn more about this phenom.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#793

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> France was historically always focused on Paris, because that was where the Emperor was. So much misconception in such a short sentence… First of all France only had an “Emperor” for a few decades (10 years for Napoléon 1er, 17 for Napoléon III). Then, Paris wasn't even the King's main residence for a good part of French Monarchy (the Loire valley (hence the list of famous castles here) and Versailles both aren't P…

> French people just stopped having babies one century before other European countries I'm not here to doubt this statement. Rather, I want to know: Why did this trend occur in France? I am curious to learn more.

That's a tough question, really. AFAIK the causes of the demographic transition in general are heavily debated among specialists and if we cannot exactly pinpoint what's driving the decline of birthrates happening right now, it's going to be even harder to pinpoint the causes for something that happened more than two centuries ago.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#794
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks, energy, telecom, defence, oil & gas companies had to be sold to French, German and Austrian companies for below market value, so those countries would lift their veto. Same with joining NATO TBF. We had to buy some overpriced shoddy used F-16 from the US with a lot of miles on the clock, for the same price of brand new Swedish Gripens just so the US would accepts us in NATO. So if history does indeed repeat it…

Romanian banks were looted by Romanians in the 90s: see Paunesu brothers and BRD. Also see Dacia Felix bank, Bancorex. Romanian telecom: post communist crash Romanian telecommunications were a disaster. For example two different phone numbers shared the same line (a.k.a. Cuplajul). In late 90s some western telecom companies started investing in Romanian cellular networks- they built all the tower and network infrastr…

>Romanian banks were looted by Romanians in the 90s: see Paunesu brothers and BRD. Also see Dacia Felix bank, Bancorex.

What does this unrelated thing, have to do with what I was talking about, like banks like BRD being sold to French Groupe Societe Generale and BCR by Austria's Erste Group. Bringing up random whataobutism isn't arguing in good faith.

>Re: F16 - romanians are flying some hand me downs from Holland which were purchased at the dizzying price of 1 euro.

Just do some googling mate before talking:

The U.S. Response: "Not Our Problem"

  The leaked WikiLeaks cables from the U.S. Embassy in Bucharest revealed that U.S. diplomats and visiting Pentagon representatives had absolutely zero sympathy for Romania’s economic misery.
The cables showed an incredibly aggressive, transactional approach by the U.S.:

  The Ultimatum: U.S. representatives told Bucharest that if Romania chose a cheaper European alternative (like the Swedish Gripen or the Eurofighter), or if they tried to delay the purchase due to their financial crisis, it would severely damage Romania's political standing in Washington.
The "Don't Care" Attitude:

  American officials explicitly communicated that Romania's internal economic issues were their own problem. The U.S. objective was to secure the deal for Lockheed Martin, lock Romania into the U.S. defense supply chain, and ensure Romania paid its "dues."
The "Political Insurance" Reality

  The cables exposed a deeply cynical dynamic that shocked the Romanian public when WikiLeaks published them:

  The U.S. viewed Romania as an easy target: American diplomats noted internally that Romanian politicians were so desperate for a security guarantee against Russia that they could be pressured into buying things they couldn't afford.

  The Romanian capitulation: Desperate to keep Washington happy, the Romanian Supreme Council of National Defense (CSAT) bypassed normal public tendering laws in 2010. They officially approved the acquisition of second-hand American F-16s, admitting privately that it was a political decision to appease the U.S., despite the fact that the country was in the middle of severe, painful economic austerity.

> Since I can remember Romania did not produce oil

HEllo?! Austria's OMV buying Romania's oil reserves for the rock bottom price of 600 million Euros in order to lift EU veta? Then pulling the same shit again for lifting the Schengen veto? It's an extortion racket.

>you sound like a Romanian nationalist

Pointing out the crimes of our partners and allies is now "nationalism"?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#795
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romanian banks were looted by Romanians in the 90s: see Paunesu brothers and BRD. Also see Dacia Felix bank, Bancorex. Romanian telecom: post communist crash Romanian telecommunications were a disaster. For example two different phone numbers shared the same line (a.k.a. Cuplajul). In late 90s some western telecom companies started investing in Romanian cellular networks- they built all the tower and network infrastr…

The idea that taking and helping countries like Romania was some massive commercial oppertunity is wild.

Can you exemplify the freely given unpaid/uncompensated "help" you're referring to?

Because with such "help", who needs enemies?

Why doesn't US, China or Russia want that type of help?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Switzerland is a highly desirable location fo skilled workers to migrate to. Don't hate the player, hate the data. 2. Setting a population limit (especially in the manner proposed) would obviously have a negative effect on (1). I think most in this thread agree with that assessment, so not much to gain from yelling at us, no? 3. Credit Suisse being CH's most "reputable" bank would be news to... pretty much everyon…

I'm not sure what we're arguing about but suck it up, I'm not moving to Switzerland!

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F8...

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems to be a common concern amongst the local population everywhere "X identity is hiring only X identity"

If you’re part of the majority group, you really don’t see how cliquish people in minority groups are. Every time I get into a cab with another “brown” person, there is a Q&A. When they find out I’m from a muslim country, it’s all “my brother,” etc. I’ve always found it distasteful.

Is it cliquishness, or is it genuine joy at an unexpected connection?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#798
post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what did Romania experience?

Half of the Romanians moved to other EU countries and then sent significant chunk of their earnings back home :)

Yes, by doing the poorly paid hard labor jobs the locals didn't want because they can chill on welfare, you know, the whole "muh labor shortage" bit.

It's not like Germans, Dutch etc or the "new europeans" they imported, were rushing to wiping the asses of their elders in their own care homes or picking fruit all day in the sun on their own farms.

What was left to send home after that wasn't "significant" by any stretch, after paying taxes, rent and CoL to further boost the local economy and the wealth of the local asset owners.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#799
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are in a position of having no seas and only EU on every side, which means things are getting more bureaucratic the more EU-Swiss relationship sours. Think border checks on the ground and flight restrictions in the air and the less than 10M rich people in the mountains can now trade only among themselves.

Why would the EU be so irrationally butt hurt about it? It seems easy enough to let the Swiss have their policy and both continue to benefit Edit: EU can void all the other contracts, but why would it want to? Why do they care so much about how many immigrants Switzerland has?

Swiss can have their policy, who said they can't have it? It's just that they can't make EU have the Swiss policy. If Switzerland wants to be a 3rd party country, they can do that and negotiate visa regime, import/export controls etc with EU like everyone else who is not part of EU or don't have a deal. They can be like UK or Turkey for example, or be have entirely different relationship.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trade policies are very much set at an EU level. > The EU would have to rely on German, Austrian, French and Italian cops/soldiers to actually enforce any sort of physical blockade against Switzerland Without these treaties, there absolutely will be permanently manned border checkpoints. None of these countries love Switzerland enough to be willing to end the EU over it.

Manned border checkpoints are likely in that case. I don't believe in complete blockade, though.

Manned border checkpoints are inevitable in that case, it would be an external border.

But of course a blockade isn’t a realistic option, the Swiss would fold immediately if they thought things were headed in that direction. You could never get to that point.

The point is that the EU can crush Switzerland with the stroke of a pen, they couldn’t crush the UK without going to war. Switzerland could never even consider a kinetic response, so its room to manoeuvre agains its vastly bigger neighbour is limited to begging for mercy.

It’s also important to remember that nobody in the EU likes the Swiss, they are notorious troublemakers who are tolerated at best and despised at worst.

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