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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#791

I can’t help comparing this to the system I grew up in (Italy), which is vastly different and it seemingly produces very good graduates. University was free and there was no test for enrolling in STEM degrees, and you could retry exams every semester as much as you wanted to. But goddamit exams were HARD and if you weren’t prepared enough you would keep failing until you gave up. We weren’t entitled because we weren’…

I studied engineering in Sweden. One of our courses had an 80% failure rate. A world of difference from Harvard where the average grade is A.

I'm glad one of my old profs in the Netherlands refused to bend and was fine with arguing his 40 percent first pass numbers (the target was 60 for some reason, hint: money). If everyone is exceptional, nobody is.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#792

I can’t help comparing this to the system I grew up in (Italy), which is vastly different and it seemingly produces very good graduates. University was free and there was no test for enrolling in STEM degrees, and you could retry exams every semester as much as you wanted to. But goddamit exams were HARD and if you weren’t prepared enough you would keep failing until you gave up. We weren’t entitled because we weren’…

I studied engineering in Sweden. One of our courses had an 80% failure rate. A world of difference from Harvard where the average grade is A.

Apparently Harvard is introducing a 20% cap (plus change) on As.

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2026/03/plan-to-rein-...

No cap on A minuses though.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#793
post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and I standby genxy’s comment. It was always a question of motivation, not ability.

I always find these types of explanations doubtful, because you can always dismiss someone of subpar ability as not trying hard enough or you could define trying hard enough in a way that is not defacto practical.

My experience teaching is limited (but I have taught some, to be clear) but I have found learned helplessness to be the biggest barrier. People have varying aptitudes for different tasks, and varying aptitude and a finite lifespan does imply some people have a lower ceiling than others in a given subject, but humans are powerful general learners. They don't generally reach their ceiling in most subjects. The limit for someone "bad at math" is almost certainly self-fulfilling prophesies they internalized.

Speaking for myself I have in the last five years or so been learning I have much more of a capacity for making art than I had thought. My art is nothing special, but I am improving every time I practice. But when I was younger I thought that I was just good at STEM-yy things and bad at other things. Relatively speaking I am better at STEM-yy than art-yy things, and I'm probably worse at art-yy things than most other people. But I have huge room for growth and I think I will eventually produce some beautiful watercolors.

As an aside, I've also found that almost everyone thinks they're bad at math? My friends with PhDs don't think they're good at math but they've forgotten more than I know about it. I think I'm bad at math but I can prove a thing or two. My spouse thinks they're bad at math, and they can't do the things I can do. But a few months ago they needed to do some simple algebra at work, and a coworker said, "dang, I wish I was good at math."

Somewhere out there Terence Tao is saying he's alright at math but he has nothing on that Euler fellow.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#794
post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that just like students, teachers are not all created equal. My 3rd grade teacher wanted to fail me for “discipline” problems. In reality, she simply didn’t like me; I had no discipline complaints in other years. I had undiagnosed ADHD and was gifted. She did not know how to deal with that, and actively disliked me. Activist teachers are also a thing.

I'm not completely convinced that "ADHD" isn't just the natural state of kids who are bored most of the time.

Your observation could mean that overdiagnosis is a thing around you.

I have a close family member with actual attention deficit and extreme hyperactivity.

You cannot mistake it with normal bored kid.

It's like his brain works at 100% intensity all the time.

When you walk with him through the town, he has to touch every door knob, climb every tree, look into every single car, peep into every hole. In a room he finds new object so interesting that he absolutely has to investigate it, for like 30 seconds and then finds another thing and another and another. 24/7. You see his body is tired, almost falling asleep, but his brain won't stop, he keeps finding new distractions he can't ignore.

You would never mistake it for just a regular bored kid.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools are not all created equal. And the admissions gauntlet can be a special kind of hell.

Can you speak more to the gauntlet? Had a bunch of friends go private in SF this year and other than “play date interviews” it seemed like a breeze?

The interviews are about vetting the parents than the actual child. The criteria are opaque and fraught with nepotism and discrimination.

There is a veritable cottage industry of admission consultants charging up to $10,000 for interview prepping the family.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#796
post #741

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having just shipped the kiddo into the real world, she's leaning liberal arts (her and her mom suck at math), but she has a benefit neither her mom or I had - EU deal citizenship. She's going to do a year here to figure things out - she's also been thinking about Europe. University in Europe, for undergrad, is different than the US. I think the large class model and a barrier of exams to advance makes sense in Europe…

No one has to suck at math. Any human can learn the majority of skills.

This is not true. Math aptitude is not evenly distributed.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#797
post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

education is highly funded. teachers are not paid well because there is a perception that "anyone can be a teacher" (which is true in the sense that there is no particular enumerable qualification or credential that makes you a good teacher) so the market is full of people who decide that they should be a teacher (many should not, but there is no a priori way of knowing). supply high. a lot of education funding goes…

Education United States is not necessarily highly funded nor are all teachers necessarily good. Can you identify a good teacher? Yes you can. Will you get rid of the ones that are bad well not really. I still remember all of the teachers that were really good and I remember some of the ones that were bad, the ones that were good. I wish that many of them could have lived long enough for me to say thank you.

> Can you identify a good teacher? Yes you can.

Can you? How? Do you have a questionnaire or something?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#798
post #540

I'm in the SF bay area w/ middle school and high school age kids. Between San Jose and San Francisco, 15%-30% of kids are in private school (it's 30% in SF where the public schools are extra dysfunctional). That's far above the California statewide average of 8% in private school. Among our peers, somewhere between 1/4 and 1/3 of kids are doing advanced math outside of school, typically either Russian School of Math…

I'm in Oakland with a three year old and I'm looking to either move to a better school district or pay for an expensive private school. I used to be a substitute teacher for the Oakland unified school district and I straight up refuse to send my son there. I have seen firsthand that these kids are not being taught well and the shortcomings compound year over year until you end with high school level students that are…

Have you considered Yu Ming, the language immersion charter school? You wouldn't need to move, you wouldn't need to pay, and 88℅ of students meet or exceed state standards for math.

(There are folks working at SFUSD for whom Yu Ming was their top choice of school for their kids.)

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not completely convinced that "ADHD" isn't just the natural state of kids who are bored most of the time.

I'm not sure if you have seen a kid with genuine bad ADHD then. Absolutely nothing will hold their attention.

I know people with ADHD who have graduated and are absolutely capable of having a job.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you speak more to the gauntlet? Had a bunch of friends go private in SF this year and other than “play date interviews” it seemed like a breeze?

The interviews are about vetting the parents than the actual child. The criteria are opaque and fraught with nepotism and discrimination. There is a veritable cottage industry of admission consultants charging up to $10,000 for interview prepping the family.

It could be worse: https://share.google/Uewx4foyaWV9ukXsC
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