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The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

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Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#791

Post by dragonelite »

Balgair wrote: post #207

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

I personally think we over urbanised. If i look at my friends circle, most of the urban ones are childless and the rural ones have 2~4 kids.

Super anecdotal and totally non scientific observation.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#792

Post by kraig911 »

BugsJustFindMe wrote: post #414
kraig911 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just hard now. Before I had kids I had a network of friends and had a great social life. Now it's just me and my wife. If I want more friends I'll have to have more kids I guess? I have 4 now. One (my first) is severely autistic. Financially the cost? I pay about 6,000 a month in daycare. 2k a month in healthcare expenses. Then community wise. Every time I've gone to take them to the movies, or to a restaurant o…

> I pay about 6,000 a month in daycare. My sister did this too until it got to be nearly as much as her entire salary so then she stopped working again and became the daycare. And that is super hard when your children have special needs. I think the worst may be that in-between area, where working and paying for daycare still seems to make sense financially because you take home more than you spend on not being at ho…

I feel kids need that sense of community and social setting. I know it's hard to get a handle on when there's nothing I went through that with my other two during covid. The difference is night and day with dealing with anxiety in social settings.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#793

Post by kraig911 »

mmooss wrote: post #581
kraig911 wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just hard now. Before I had kids I had a network of friends and had a great social life. Now it's just me and my wife. If I want more friends I'll have to have more kids I guess? I have 4 now. One (my first) is severely autistic. Financially the cost? I pay about 6,000 a month in daycare. 2k a month in healthcare expenses. Then community wise. Every time I've gone to take them to the movies, or to a restaurant o…

> It's just hard now. I completely sympathize with the challenges, though I don't understand (and might completely misunderstand) the word "now". Do you meant 'in the current world'? What is different that makes it harder? And what defines now - the social media age? Post-WWII?

Now to me I think is a point in time earlier than now. I'm thinking somewhere when people didn't need to get out and do stuff with another. I think when I was a kid it was normal to have grandparents, and church settings, and just after school programs at the Y or kids in general would find each other in the neighborhood and play. I don't see much of that the same in the 'now'

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#794

Post by sylens »

kraig911 wrote: post #395
Balgair wrote: post #207

I like to hang out on fertility twitter. It's a strange place. Since the fertility problem is worldwide, you get a lot of ideologies mixing about. There's hardcore CCP folks, free market Mormons, radical Imams, universalist preachers, the whole lot of them. They're all trying to share ideas and jumping on the latest research findings from reputable and crackpot sources. They're all looking for the recipe to get peopl…

It's just hard now. Before I had kids I had a network of friends and had a great social life. Now it's just me and my wife. If I want more friends I'll have to have more kids I guess? I have 4 now. One (my first) is severely autistic. Financially the cost? I pay about 6,000 a month in daycare. 2k a month in healthcare expenses. Then community wise. Every time I've gone to take them to the movies, or to a restaurant o…

This is such a great comment. I think people don't realize how much harder it is to raise kids now than the 90s or even early 2000s.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#795

Post by kraig911 »

HelloMcFly wrote: post #575
WhompingWindows wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not alone, Kraig911. It's very hard to be a parent in modern society. My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way. They say they do, but they rely on us to take the initiative and make social things happen. After dozens of rejections or silence from dozens of them, it's rejection fatigue with the friends…

> My wife and I's friends have basically vanished from our lives, they have zero initiative or interest in coming over to see the kids or help in any way I completely believe that’s been your experience, but want to highlight that his is a difficult asymmetry in these friendships. I in no way mean to imply that the below is the experience your friends had with you, just that the challenges are not one-way. In my own…

It's simply hard to plan. Before kids I'd typically meet up with friend around 8 or so maybe 9. Now bedtime rules my evenings. When my kids are asleep I'm exhausted. Most of my friends evenings are just starting at that time! (lol) and I completely understand. The other thing is I can't go out and get drunk or party because being hung over with a 3 year old pissing the bed after they crawl in to sleep/cuddle with you - nothing better/worse.

It's simply hard to relate. I have some very good friends who we've stayed in touch. I'm forever grateful for them. But when you're out and about and you meet a random person and try to strike up a friendship say at a conference. The second I mention I'm a dad I feel I'm relegated to the back of the bus.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#796

Post by bpt3 »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #776
bpt3 wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh good grief, parents with SUVs aren't that complex, and they are often purchased to carry around their kids' friends as well (negating your first point). People do what works for them within their budget, which often is a larger vehicle when you have kids. If you want to translate that as "speed and comfort is of the essence", then fine. I could say the same about someone with no kids who prefers living in a highly…

>Oh good grief, parents with SUVs aren't that complex, and they are often purchased to carry around their kids' friends as well (negating your first point). If the goal was to carry more people, a minivan would have been bought, as they are more spacious and comfortable. An SUV's goal is to use up more space and have the passengers sit higher up, to project more "power" or "status".

Nothing like a thread on vehicle preferences to rouse the extremely vocal and judgmental fuckcars crowd on here.

You may be shocked to hear this, but not all SUVs are less spacious than minivans and comfort is very subjective.

You have to define SUV to determine its goals. Most "SUVs" are basically cars that are slightly lifted and extended. The ones I assume you take most issue with are significantly larger than minivans, have 4WD (which is actually useful where I live), and also are seen as more luxurious.

I would say the primary goal, especially for parents, is occupant safety, which does come at the cost of the safety of others. Good luck convincing anyone to change with your attacks though.

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#797

Post by tayo42 »

xyzelement wrote: post #787
tayo42 wrote: post #629

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you live in the US?

To add to my previous comment. There's nothing about "the US" that makes precludes any of this. Lots of people chose to remain (or move back to) close to their families especially when they have kids on their own. EG when we bought the house because it was closer to the in-laws, the previous owners were moving to SC to be closer to their family. It's just a decision you make or not bother to make. And then to make an…

>so the residents (and businesses) are super accommodating of families with kids. To the point where if I have to take a little one to the bathroom in a restaurant, people often invite my big one (5 year old) to hang out at their table so I don't have to worry about it.

My experience so far with a kid is most people will just tolerate your child. I'm surprised your running into that attitude.

Other new parents I know that are in the suburbs aren't all surrounded by family's either. I think aging people aren't downsizing their houses and moving around. Careers scattered and cheap homes scattered everyone around.

Maybe NYC is just different. I mean I'm 100% sure it's different. I'm grew up in a NYC suburb lol

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#798

Post by tsoukase »

Let's reiterate:

* kids are and were always born in severely underdeveloped places like Africa and during hard times like famines or wars

* worldwide in the last 100 years and maybe throughout all history the education level and social freedom of woman severely impacts her fertility

Draw your own conclusions about the causes and solutions of the demographic problem

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#799

Post by [deleted] »

Seabiscuit wrote: post #784

As a (young, thus-far childless) woman, I feel it's important to add something that men may not fully grasp and I haven't seen much in the thread so far: what tips the scales in this decision is often not just daycare costs/career prospects, but also the potentially extreme side effects of pregnancy on the body. Going through the process of being pregnant and giving birth is absolutely terrifying to me and most of my…

[deleted]

Re: The US is flirting with its first-ever population decline

#800

Post by SirMaster »

antisthenes wrote: post #747
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My take on it is: you have to make your country/society a place where people will want to have children and feel/know that their children's lives will be good ones. Anecdata of one - but I think one non-trivial contributor that I haven't seen people talking about is... From my experience and the experience of most of my friends and family... people actively DON'T want kids until about 30 - and often times that's to…

> It seems like all my single friends around 30 talk about how the dating pool is terrible Let's call it out specifically - few women want to have kids. I'm using an app right now and for every 1 woman who has "wants kids" in their profile, there's probably 2-3 women who say they don't want kids or "aren't sure". And these aren't young women either, the age range is roughly 29-35, so even on the older side of optimal…

I feel like this is merely an anecdote.

I am on the apps too and have my range set to 29-38. About 80% of the women I'm seeing have selected as "wants kids". I don't want kids and I can barely find any women to match with who also don't want kids...

I think we both have anecdotes though and unless we have data from the entire company, we can't make any real accurate claim here.

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