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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#791

Post by MetaWhirledPeas »

dataflow wrote: post #653
kristov wrote: post #641

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

Can you make an argument as to how this is different from having to have an account with, say, your ISP?

If ISPs pose a similar problem, that still doesn't minimize the Apple/Google problem.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#792

Post by roywiggins »

humodz wrote: post #671
sokoloff wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I called their support line for a lost card, and had to go through to second level support because I didn't have the app. What’s the alternative? The bank sending out a debit card to anyone who calls up and says “I’m @kristov, trust me…” You were not able to served by the standard path, because you couldn’t authenticate yourself via the standard mechanism. You still got service by an alternate path. No different fr…

Off the top of my head: going in-person to the bank, email, phone call or sms to a number that you previously informed to the bank (say when opening the account), otp a la authy or aegis. None of these require you to be on google or apple's walled garden.

Banks have been closing up their in-person services as fewer and fewer people use them.

https://www.kiplinger.com/personal-finance/banking/is-your-l...

> Since 2020, the rate of bank branch closures in the U.S. has doubled. The majority of those closures come from large and very large banks, contributing to an overall 5.6% decline in total bank branches nationwide since the start of the pandemic.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#793

Post by altairprime »

Rohansi wrote: post #335
altairprime wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a scenario where this does work: you can install any operating system on the hardware you own, if you complete a “erase all content and settings” dire scary confirmation screen. - If you want to run something other than iPadOS or Google TV, go for it. (Smart TVs are just tablets with a don’t-touch screen.) - If you want to install spyware on someone’s phone, you can’t; the HSM keys held by their OS are lost w…

> My car already allows me to do this. My phone should too. If you're referring to CarPlay and/or Android Auto you should know that it's not actually running on your car. It's basically RDPing your phone onto your car screen. You can already install RDP apps on your phone and connect to systems that provide more freedom, of course.

No, I’m talking about the Engine Control Module.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#794

Post by mikewarot »

carlosjobim wrote: post #90
mikewarot wrote: post #89

A gentle reminder to the readers here at HN that it doesn't have to be this way. Computer Security is a solved problem[1], and has been so since the 1980s [2]. It's my strong opinion that the only methods you've seen to this point[3-7] were deliberately chosen to be ones that don't work, and make things worse in the long run. There's no reason we shouldn't be able to run what we want on our hardware, without having t…

Your opinion is not "a gentle reminder", "a friendly reminder" or "a public service announcement". It's just your opinion and nothing more.

Ok, so I've trigged quite a reaction with my phrasing. I'm very sorry about that.

Put yourself in my place... Computer Security is a solved problem, and has been for decades, yet we find ourselves in an infinite loop of crises that result in ignorance of solutions. Maybe 5% of all discourse here on HN is about a problem we don't have to have.

How would you push the world to resolution?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#795

Post by AtlasBarfed »

beeflet wrote: post #329
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the real canaries I watch on "real AI" for programming. It should be able to make an OS. It should be able to write drivers. It should be able to port code to new platforms. It should be able to transpile compiled binaries (which are just languages of a different language) across architectures. Sure seems we are very far from that, but really these are breadth-based knowledge with extensive examples /…

>It should be able to make an OS. It should be able to write drivers. How is it going to do that without testing (and potentially bricking) hardware in real life? >It should be able to transpile compiled binaries (which are just languages of a different language) across architectures I don't know why you would use an LLM to do that. Couldn't you just distribute the binaries in some intermediate format, or decompile t…

I agree that it's a challenging problem.

My line of thinking is that AI essentially is really good at breadth-based problems wide knowledge.

An operating system is a specific well-known set of problems. Generally, it's not novel technology involved. An OS is a massive amount of work. Technical butrudgerous work.

If there's a large amount of source code, a great deal of discussion on that source code, and lots of other working examples, and you're really just kind of doing a derivative n + 1 design or adaptation of an existing product, that sounds like something in llm can do

Obviously I'm not talking about vibe, coding and OS. But could an OS do 99% of that and vastly reduce the amount of work to get a OS to work with your hardware with the big assumption that you have access to specs or some way of doing that?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#796

Post by looneysquash »

I didn't buy a box of transistors, I bought a "smart phone", a pocket sized computer.

The OS and hardware are parts of the whole.

So you're phrasing it wrong.

I should have the ability to run any code I want on my smart phone that I own.

And to my clear, I own my smart phone. You own your smart phone. Any EULA to the contrary should be null and void.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#797

Post by eMPee584 »

fauigerzigerk wrote: post #766
rhines wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've reached the point where people without devices or common online services are so rare that society no longer accommodates them. It's similar to how we need legislation to ensure that disabled people have accessible infrastructure, except I doubt there will ever be legislation mandating offline/off-app accessibility.

Yes, but to me there is a very big difference between being forced to adopt a class of technologies (online services in general) along with the rest of society and being forced to contract with a handful of specific companies that impose extremely one-sided contractual terms on everybody, touching almost every aspect of life.

Yes, but both permutations of digital coercion suck, right? ^^D

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#798

Post by eldaisfish »

sokoloff wrote: post #757
humodz wrote: post #671

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Off the top of my head: going in-person to the bank, email, phone call or sms to a number that you previously informed to the bank (say when opening the account), otp a la authy or aegis. None of these require you to be on google or apple's walled garden.

Nor did GGP's approach require them to be in google or apple's walled garden. That's exactly the point: there's an easy and common method that many people choose to use, but there is still a perfectly working method for people who choose to not use apple or google.

the part you are missing is that this is the situation for now. Emphasis on for now. Google are already moving to restrict what software your phone can run i.e. they control your device.

Please, don't be so obtuse just for the sake of argument. Any rational, well-informed person can wee where this is going.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#799

Post by ddingus »

throwaway31131 wrote: post #775
kristov wrote: post #641

I think the conversation needs to change from "can't run software of our choice" to "can't participate in society without an apple or google account". I have been living with a de-googled android phone for a number of years, and it is getting harder and harder, while at the same time operating without certain "apps" is becoming more difficult. For example, by bank (abn amro) still allows online banking on desktop via…

The main issue is we’re not there today and it’s not obvious what that world looks like. We all had junk drawers of useless charging cables, everyone agreed it was stupid, hence a universal charging connector standard along with the promise that the charger junk drawers will be freed. Even if we mandate the “POSIX of smart phones”, for lack of a better term, what problem today, for everyday users, does it solve? It m…

Give Google and Apple anything they want, in exchange for a reasonable life.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#800

Post by trelane »

tqwhite wrote: post #697

You can. You can jailbreak your iPhone. I assume you can do so with Android. Problem solved. Oh, you want to jailbreak it and use it as an authenticator? No. That doesn't seem like a reasonable requirement.

You don't have to jailbreak some Android devices, namely the Google devices (provided you didn't buy them from a carrier).[1] They are designed to allow alternate firmware.

Instructions for installing alternate firmware : https://grapheneos.org/install/web

[1] https://grapheneos.org/faq#supported-devices

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