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‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

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Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#791
post #600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is horrific and much worse than I thought it was.

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Yes, I'd expect that from compassionate human beings. Such beings can hold two conflicting thoughts at the same time: the hostages situation is incredibly tragic, and the suffering inflicted unto innocent people who had nothing to do with the hostage taking is also immensely tragic and inhuman.

Using the hostages as justification for collective punishment is exactly what Netanyahu's government want, it becomes easy to justify the abhorrent treatment of millions of people, repeating this is just ceding power to the worst elements of his government (Ben Gvir, etc.).

The hostages should be returned by Hamas, that shouldn't cost millions of people their families, homes, lives, it's collective punishment, it's genocide.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#792
post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This did not start on Oct 7. Bad faith nonsense. This argumentum ad Oct-7 got tired about a year ago. How long do you plan to keep using it? Two more years? Ten years? Twenty years?

When did you say the hostages were taken?

Do you consider raids by the IDF in Palestinian villages in the middle of the night[0][1], taking people away without recourse, a hostage taking situation?

Because this is something done by the IDF for decades, I shared a house with a Israeli who was in the IDF's intelligence (not a common conscript), participated in such raids in 2010, got told by their officer that these actions were to keep Palestinians afraid, and this is what changed their whole view on the IDF's role in perpetuating the crisis between Israel and Palestine.

Their disenchantment led to the point they became an activist against the IDF in Israel, and had to move away because of threats, and constant harassment.

These raids are well-known, have been happening for ages, and are basically kidnappings perpetuated by the IDF to make Palestinians afraid, isn't that a kind of terrorism? Or doesn't it apply in this case for some reason that I'd love for you to explain?

[0] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2020-10-11/ty-article-ma...

[1] https://interactive.aljazeera.com/aje/2023/israel-home-invas...

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#793
post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This situation ends in two ways: either the Palestinians disappear, or Israel disappears. See this is the problem, that kind of thought is why Israel is comfortable allowing the people of Gaza to suffer indefinitely. Hamas and the people of Gaza have zero power in this situation. They can either bend over backwards and appease Israel to try to regain some trust and maybe at some point Israel will slowly loosen rest…

Bend over backwards to a country that tortured them and is committing a genocide against them? Would you have asked the Jews to bend over backwards to Nazi Germany to appease them? You're not interested in discussing in good faith, pretending that this is only because of October 7. Hope you sleep soundly while tens of thousands of children die at the hand of a genocidal state.

Not the original commentor, but outrage aside, what choices are there? Sometimes a problem isn't solved despite a solution existing. But in this case it's not clear to me that any real "solution" exists?

For Palestine: Either defiant resistance until extermination (or victory whatever it means) or bowing to a group one hates with every fiber of your being? No? Other alternatives? Alternatives they would be willing to accept? How do you even get concensus on such charged matters?

A lot of Palestinians are non-negotiable about wanting all Israelis gone from the region. And a lot of Israeli's may be willing to accept terrible solutions - terrible for the Palestinians. Some say genocide. But how do you choose between genocide or tolerating ongoing attacks?

Other solutions: Outside intervention. Outside world intervenes, but how and at what cost?

And for how long, and will it really be effective? And effective for which side? Is there a way to intervene without tipping the balance in favour of one side over the other? How to intervene in the most fair way to all sides? And is the cost and risk even worth it - unlikely?

I don't see how. I don't see any solutions. I have not heard of any viable solutions acceptable to majorities of populations on both sides, or even acceptable to most impartial outsiders.

Problem is not solved, because it is unsolvable. So it will end badly? Or continue as is for decades more.

I pasted this into Gemini trying to find solutions, the best I can come up with is a two state solution, involving land swaps to clear up the border, and then an international peace keeping force seperating them.

Exploring this solution reveals problems on both sides with proposed land swaps, suggesting basically that outsiders will have to ram a compromise solution down the throats of both sides - which to me sounds rather terrible.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep that is who I meant.

Why do that? If you mean to say something, go ahead and say it.

I knew with reasonable certainty who they were alluding to, so I didn’t read it as them being vague to be honest, more literary.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#795
post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is two-state solution possible? Just look at the map of the territories under palestinian control, they're bantustans. Israel/Palestine is factually one state, which simply doesn't accept half of its population as citizens. You could also say that "two-state solution" has been tried in 1948, but (for whatever reasons) didn't work out. So support for 2-state is just a form of delaying the inevitable. I am now firm bel…

>You could also say that "two-state solution" has been tried in 1948, but (for whatever reasons) didn't work out. The Arab world overwhelmingly rejected the UN Partition Plan in principle, which led directly to the 1948 Palestine war and the first Arab-Israeli war. Likewise, the signing of the Oslo Accords (and the rejection of those accords by Hamas, PIJ and other factions within the PLO) led directly to the Second…

Israel never really accepted two state solution either (US has been vetoing against it, and together with Israel they still threaten any politician who seriously floats the idea of Palestinian state). There is other evidence as well, but I don't think blaming either party is constructive.

So if neither party accepts the partition, the only conclusion is they will have to learn to live together on the same territory. It's not rocket science, everywhere else in the world this is possible.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#796
post #731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The countries with capacity for outside intervention are intervening - to support Israel. Without constant outside support, Israel would fall by this time next month. It would not longer be a country.

Nah. Israel is a nuclear power. They have a right to exist and won't just quietly disappear. If they feel that they're facing an existential threat then they'll use those weapons. I'm not saying that this is a good thing, just that it would be the most likely outcome. The current situation is bad for everyone involved but it could get even worse.

Gaza is within Israel. Israel can't nuke Gaza without also nuking large parts of Israel.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#797
post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The settlers been at this for a long, long time. It was hard for me to understand their perspective as well, because surely they most be seeing what they do as something good, like everyone else. There is a BBC documentary that goes into more depth, but a short snippet of the documentary can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrdldVhfbaU which includes a short interview with Daniella Weiss, a Orthodox Zio…

the BBC is not unbiased in this (or anything), so I would ignore any "documentary" aired by them.

If you want to avoid anything with bias, you better disconnect your router because literally every person is biased one way or another. When viewing documentaries it's important to know that, including BBC ones, so you can have that in mind, not avoid watching the documentaries at all.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#798
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem here though is what will ever give Israel confidence that Oct 7 will never happen again? We know that going after terrorists for years and killing them just creates more terrorists (Iraq, Afghanistan). The young children who do not end up dying of starvation will be men in 20 years, still in Gaza with no options to leave and resent Israel who they will consider to be effectively their jailer. The situatio…

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It's the direct result of the political ambitions of Netanyahu, using Hamas as a wedge for Palestinians to have less power[0][1].

> According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Oct 7th is the direct result of a policy to keep Palestinians out of a two-state solution, it's the direct result of Netanyahu's politics play.

[0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...

[1] https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-...

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#799
post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you say that it would surprise me. How many settlements do you think is okay? And more importantly, how many projected settlements are okay, in your opinion? No, Fatah did absolutely stop armed resistance. Getting wiped by Israel hasn't been a reason for Palestinians to stop fighting or laying down the arms before. Fatah stopped fighting, in part due to Israel's military victory, sure. But also becau…

- learning basic facts facilitates fact based discussions. you avoid going and learning facts that may not correspond to your worldview - fatah was beaten down. it doesn't say "stopped". it says "lost". hamas wasn't knocked down into oblivion and they were always more popular than fatah - no go zones means that PA doesn't go there because Hamas/PIJ will kill them there. - rockets not thrown from there not because due…

There shouldn't be any "israeli population" in the West Bank. To a large extent it is armed and commonly also in uniform, without being in IDF service.

From 1999 to 2018 colonial population in the West Bank grew from ~177000 to ~430000 or so. Since the current israeli government took power they've massively accelerated colonial efforts in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and also moved away from military administration in a blatant rejection of international law. I.e. before the response from Hamas in October 2023.

Hamas are popular because they've achieved results, and are perceived as relatively moderate and flexible in politics. Their main competitor, PIJ, disavows parliamentary politics entirely as long as the occupation is in place, considering it a waste of resources and naive pandering to foreign governments that they have no faith in.

Re: ‘No Other Land’ consultant Awdah Hathaleen killed by Israeli settler

#800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not so shocking when you realize that israel is a european settler colony created and founded by europeans and settled by europeans. I don't think many european countries criticized the settlement of canada, us, australia, argentina, etc. Israel isn't a semitic country. It is a european/western country just like australia. It's just that nobody calls out the obvious.

> israel is a european settler colony created and founded by europeans and settled by europeans Speaking as someone who has heritage in a former European colony, this reductive framing strikes me as ringing closer to the remote oversimplifications Sykes and Picot engaged in than anything those on the ground would endorse. American political science is obsessed with settler colonialism. Herego, every conflict distills…

Some prominent israeli politicians routinely declare that they are the vanguard and front line protection of 'Western civilisation' that are fighting the barbarism of the indigenous savages.

Back in 2007 or so polls among israeli teens showed that almost every young israeli jew believed that "arabs" are intellectually inferior, have no culture and are inclined to unreasonable violence. This is quite common in settler colonial settings, you kind of need to have a story about why you and your in-group are justified in oppressing your immediate neighbours. Since then 'anti-arabism' hasn't gone away, rather the opposite.

Large portions of israeli society support ethnic cleansing among citizens, for example. This is the foundation for discrimination and apartheid within Israel, and due to how state anti-discrimination agencies work there is relatively little data on discrimination of mizrahi and sephardi jews even though it's well known to exist.

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