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Preliminary report into Air India crash released

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#791

Post by tverbeure »

gamblor956 wrote: post #760
sillysaurusx wrote: post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, thank you for calling attention to this. You’re absolutely right, despite what others are saying here. That’s why there’s a movement for reforms. Secondly, yes, it was likely a deliberate action to cut off the fuel switches, as you say. You are absolutely right that there’s an epidemic in the airline industry that forces pilots to stay quiet rather than risk their careers if they’re dealing with mental…

Sorry, that conclusion is just silly. I know people in the airline industry (some pilots and a number of flight attendants) and the problem is not that they're forced to conceal mental issues. The problem is that many people in aviation imagine that they need to conceal their problems. And they point to videos like this one as proof of that, ignoring that the events of discussed in the video are actually proof of the…

What about Xyla Foxlin’s case: https://youtu.be/aj0H8oVS7qg?si=X7Nux24PPbNa24Y8

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#792

Post by Spooky23 »

shash wrote: post #516
Spooky23 wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Serious question: why is it so difficult to fathom that a deranged pilot could decide to commit suicide by plane?

Not difficult, but can you close an investigation on that note without going over other possibilities? What if there's another safety lesson to be learnt here?

The investigation isn’t closed. A preliminary report is usually required to be released within a few weeks of an incident.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#793

Post by lurking_swe »

noqc wrote: post #661
SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #629

Assuming this is a murder-suicide and not a mistake or malfunction somehow, it's very damning of the FAA's policy to revoke the pilot's licenses of anyone seeking treatment for mental health issues. This was in India and thus not FAA jurisdiction, but it still would be a case where an untreated mental health issue lead to hundreds of deaths. By making pilots choose between their careers & medical treatment (since the…

The murder suicide angle isn't particularly worthy of assumption yet. Have you ever put your phone in the fridge? Pilots deactivate the fuel cutoff at the end of the final taxi to the gate. This makes flipping these switches a practiced maneuver , capable of being performed without conscious thought, regardless of whether they came with safety locks installed. Brain farts are a real phenomenon, and an accidental fuel…

you make some good points but i thought your example was funny. No, i have never left my phone in the fridge. And i’m in my 30s, so not that young.

I HAVE sometimes “lost” my phone in my own backpack though (lol).

Here’s my take as a non-pilot. Takeoff is a sequence of checklists and procedures that are repeated. Often. If it’s muscle memory, a brain fart seems very unlikely… that’s why i’m skeptical of your theory.

A better analogy would be “have you ever forgotten to put on shoes before leaving your house?” And no, i have not, even during emergencies or when i’m very tired (like when i had to rush my wife to the ER). Why? because that’s something i do daily, and is part of my checklist when departing my house.

Or “have you ever forgotten how to get to work?” that also is extremely unlikely, because one typically follows the same exact steps and route daily. And i don’t randomly turn off my engine while driving, even if i’m multitasking or im forced to take a slightly different route due to a detour.

To be clear, i’m not saying it’s physically impossible. I just find it inconceivable.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#794

Post by sillysaurusx »

fc417fc802 wrote: post #789
sillysaurusx wrote: post #767

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is explicitly dehumanizing them by saying they’re not allowed to be pilots despite having issues. Claiming that it’s not is again part of the problem. You can’t imagine what it’s like to worry about losing your career because of something you’re forced to keep secret, and is entirely treatable. That’s the kind of barbarism that future generations will look back on us and shake their heads at. I hope you never have…

Without necessarily taking a side (I don't know enough about the specifics of the FAA policy or the various incidents over the years) I'd like to suggest that you are rather missing the point of the person you are responding to. Take your argument to the extreme. Suppose someone has a physical or mental issue that renders them unable to reliably judge a certain type of situation or undertake some action that must be…

Feeling suicidal isn’t a debilitating condition. People around you have suicidal ideation every day, and they manage their jobs well.

I’ll counter your argument with this: a bus driver is allowed to feel suicidal ideation, yet they safeguard the lives of everyone on board. Maiming everyone would be as easy as accelerating on the highway and swerving off the road. Yet we don’t worry about this, because it’s rare enough not to matter.

Meanwhile if you say "a suicidal bus driver has no business behind the steering wheel", congratulations, you’ve just forced all the suicidal bus drivers to hide their condition.

You’re not going to be able to detect this illness the way you can detect the ones you name. Your policy is going to force people to hide it. It’s a dumb policy. That’s not an appeal to emotion.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#795

Post by sillysaurusx »

MangoToupe wrote: post #773
gamblor956 wrote: post #759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, that video actually supports the OP's claim. A pilot with a well-managed mental condition would be allowed to fly. So, a pilot with depression over the loss of a parent would still be allowed to fly. But a pilot with suicidal ideations, or taking hallucinogens, like Emerson from Alaska Airlines Flight 2509 (the flight discussed in the linked video), would not be allowed to fly. And that's exactly the…

Suicidal ideation is a normal part of being human. Fantasizing about committing suicide by crashing a plane is jot. Neither of these are remotely comparable to hallucinogens.

Bingo. And to be clear, if someone is explicitly fantasizing about crashing their plane, then obviously that’s worth grounding them until the condition is fixed. The crucial part is (a) that they still make a living, thanks to insurance, and (b) that they admit it, both to themselves and to everyone else.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#796

Post by throwaway48476 »

WalterBright wrote: post #749
invalidator wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MCAS autonomously adjusts trim downward. The trim switches override MCAS, but when released, MCAS can resume trimming down again. The trim adjustments don't "override" the pilot's elevator inputs (MCAS has no direct control over the elevators), but they can make the controls so heavy that it's impossible to pull up.

If MCAS is running the trim, the thumb switches override it. MCAS affects the stabilizer, the thumb switches affect the stabilizer, the cutoff switch affects the stabilizer. The elevators are controlled by the control column and the autopilot. > The trim switches override MCAS, but when released, MCAS can resume trimming down again. That is correct. That is why the procedure is to return the trim to normal with the t…

It's good that you're still around to correct misinformation about MCAS. I've seen so much misinformation about it, including from paid "experts".

The Wright brothers succeeded because they were pioneers in wind tunnels and aluminum engine blocks.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#797

Post by throwaway48476 »

WalterBright wrote: post #747
interestica wrote: post #675

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we not in agreement? MCAS overrode the inputs and the thumb switches could override MCAS?

The pilot's inputs are the thumb switches, and they override MCAS. Additionally, the stab trim cutoff switch overrode both MCAS and the thumb switches. Using both easily and successfully averts MCAS crashes, as proven in the first incident (there were three, but only two are reported on).

There were also a lot of MCAS near misses.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#798

Post by throwaway48476 »

WalterBright wrote: post #751
dyauspitr wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All I’m saying is in those situations it should involve another toggle or pedal that needs to be pushed to cut off the engines so it’s outside the realm of muscle memory.

Ok, but that also will delay the shutdown and if it's too complicated the pilot may forget it in his extreme stress.

You cant force individual action alignment with technology. People never learn this.

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#799

Post by [deleted] »

ggreer wrote: post #30
shoghicp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The affected table includes these models as well: 787-8, -9, and -10

The only affected models were 737s with the 766AT613-3D fuel control switch. The bulletin recommended that other models be inspected and any defects reported. It's unclear if any 787s were discovered to have the issue. Also the preliminary report mentions that the switches were replaced in 2019 and 2023, after the 2018 bulletin.

[deleted]

Re: Preliminary report into Air India crash released

#800

Post by rnlkh »

ggreer wrote: post #30
shoghicp wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The affected table includes these models as well: 787-8, -9, and -10

The only affected models were 737s with the 766AT613-3D fuel control switch. The bulletin recommended that other models be inspected and any defects reported. It's unclear if any 787s were discovered to have the issue. Also the preliminary report mentions that the switches were replaced in 2019 and 2023, after the 2018 bulletin.

https://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/NM-18-33.pdf/SIB_NM-18-33_1

Here is the full SAIB on the Boeing fuel control switches. This report lists the part 4TL837-3D as the switch used on 787s, and is the part mentioned in the preliminary report on the accident.

The SAIB does single out the part 766AT613-3D, but that's for suggesting a replacement for it as 766AT614-3D.

Per the Honeywell catalog for 4TL837-3D, if is a Snap Action toggle switch. The base model doesn't have a locking mechanism, which is available as an option

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