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The $25k car is going extinct?

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Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#791

Post by Der_Einzige »

potato3732842 wrote: post #441
CalRobert wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure, a lot of people seem quick to blame children for “darting” in to the road instead of accepting responsibility for operating a dangerous machine.

People lay the blame on children and their parents because if they choose to do their best bipedal impression of a deer there's really nothing a driver can do. One could be going 10mph and if a child darts out from parked cars at the right time you're gonna hit them. Heck, adults get hit by forklifts and other heavy equipment going single digit speeds all the time and even workplaces that separate traffic nearly comp…

The average car driver is NOT putting enough active attention into their driving and could in many cases break fast enough to prevent the accidents that do happen. Furthermore, the average car driver has not been trained on how to actually handle extremely rapid braking situations. A lot of people are downright wusses about dealing with the "whiplash" of actually hard braking their cars. I'd even claim that over half of all drivers have not seriously applied their brakes at 100% at a speed above 20mph EVER!

Slow reaction times, of the kind that could be easily corrected by more strict laws around who and how licenses are given, are easily the #1 reason for preventable pedestrian deaths from cars.

This is a solvable problem and the Euros have far less of these stupid kinds of situations for a reason. I WILL blame most drivers who "kill children" for their laxidazy assumption that they can reduce their idle concentration just because "it hasn't happened to them".

Also all of this discourse is really arguments for requiring all cars to have active automatic emergency braking for pedestrians and other cars.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#792

Post by ManBeardPc »

As someone working for the German automotive industry I see part of the reason being a nearly constant crisis situation. Software is another part that seems to consume a huge amount of resources for little outcome. See Cariad from Volkswagen for an example.

Suppliers suffer from a constant flood and drought of contracts. Crisis -> We need so save money -> Supplier contracts are frozen or cancelled -> "Oh, we can't do stuff ourselves/We need help" -> Supplier had to let go experienced staff, hire cheap/unexperienced replacements/outsource -> Quality suffers and costs explode -> Repeat. Also not paying/delaying payments drives more suppliers out of business.

You also better promise the impossible because the cheapest offer wins. One time I got a PowerPoint as the technical drawings for electric charger test station. Just some black boxes, lines and names. That was the documentation. I should help the project management with documentation of the current state, but had to provide quite a bit of engineering in addition. Also had to talk to the Chinese supplier directly (nobody in the team spoke Mandarin). What a joy.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#793

Post by DanielHB »

trinix912 wrote: post #713
DanielHB wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am from Brazil and although most cities are 100% built around cars, public transportation IS an option and mostly works and is (somewhat) affordable. Unlike the US, if a place is 1km away as the eagle flies you can get there by walking ~1.5km max. And there are bus services and although often overcrowded or with low service, they do run and you can plan your life around them. Yet everyone still buys a car as soon a…

> To get to the point that Europe is in where even rich people don't want cars or if they have one it is for weekend trips. You need to do a lot better than this. It's not like that in all of Europe either, the further you go from Western Europe, the worse the public transit gets. The Balkans are probably the worst, you need a car if you live outside a city as rail and even busses are slow, unreliable, or just not an…

It is like that in Western Europe as well, "if you live outside a city" you need a car. However small cities don't have the massive gridlocks that big cities have so they can support a car-centric life.

And sure taking a train sure is faster/nicer for long travel, but in practice what matters the most for the economy and people's life/health is the daily commute which mostly happens inside cities.

But you don't quite get how it is in the US (and Canada). In the US it is "if you live *inside* a city" you need a car*, no matter if small, large, or metropolis.

* Except for a few metro areas

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#794

Post by Rebelgecko »

marcellus23 wrote: post #760
dudeinhawaii wrote: post #751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While we're being data driven - the narrative isn't far off from reality. Looking at inflation in isolation is also misleading. Plainly, prices have risen faster than pay. Avg. new-car price: $23,017 in 2005 -> $47,465 in 2024 (+32% after inflation). Median household income: $46,242 in 2005 -> $80,610 in 2023 (+12% after inflation).

Is the average new-car price the average price that people are buying cars at, or the price that cars are being released at?

I believe the stat is uually reported as median purchase price, so if a billionaire orders a bunch of Bugattis it doesn't mess up the stats

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#795

Post by lan321 »

a_c wrote: post #431
BanterTrouble wrote: post #382

I work on my own cars now (as a hobby really) and one of the reasons the new cars are so expensive is they are much more complicated. A lot of this seems to be over-engineering IMO. This is alluded to in the article, but not explicitly stated. The cars I work on are from the early 90s and everything is very simple to understand. e.g. Electronics are normally simple circuits that aren't much more complicated than what…

Any recommendation how to start learning repairing a car? I have absolutely zero experience. A friend of mine said just learn to change a tyre first and I have been procrastinating since.

Don't worry, would be my main advice. Find an official service manual online and follow it. Avoid following YouTube advice without checking the manual as well. Many people on there are not the smartest and will make things difficult for themselves or dangerous for no reason. (I only like M539 Restorations and The Workshop nowadays)

Aside from that, get a clunker or, even better, a motorcycle to work on (if they float your boat, of course). Motorcycles are wonderful because everything is easy to reach, light and usually kinda sexy for the year and price.

Again, don't worry too much. You can rebuild an engine if you have the tools and follow the manual. It's all just following steps. Just don't get clever if you're lacking a tool or something. Take a break, get what you need, don't start doing "clever" things because you feel like it's life and death to finish something right this moment, and you'll be good.

Edit: Oh yeah, and a welding course is probably a good idea down the road. I keep delaying it, but it'd be useful, and it'll also surely be kind of fun.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#796

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

pif wrote: post #729
foobarian wrote: post #591

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not to mention how much more functionality present day cars have. (mentioned in a couple comments elsewhere, but things like airbags/backup cameras/other sensors etc).

Cars have much more functionality these days, and it is good. But too much of that functionality is mandatory, and this is bad.

For functionality meant to protect people outside the car (eg. automatic braking, or pedestrian airbags) there is a very good case for it being mandatory.

Unfortunately those are often not on the list of mandatory features.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#797

Post by cogman10 »

dotancohen wrote: post #553
cogman10 wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Software doesn't have to be complex. The most complex piece of software EVs absolutely need is the BMS and the charging protocol. Everything else is super basic. There's a reason some of the earliest vehicles were EVs.

You think that software isn't complex because you've never seen it. What should it do when the throttle pedal goes from 0 to 99 percent? That's likely an electrical issue, not a driver command to plow through the school zone. I could probably think of a dozen such scenarios, and the true number is probably in the hundreds. They all have to be proofed mathematically. With redundancy. Out of eye, out of mind.

There is fundamentally no difference between a golf car and an electric car other than a higher top speed and more powerful motor.

> What should it do when the throttle pedal goes from 0 to 99 percent?

How fast? 0->99% in 1 second is likely the user gunning it. 0 to 99 percent in a millisecond is likely a fault. In either case, the simplest solution is a capacitor in-between the signal and throttle. Doesn't need to be particularly beefy to get the job done.

The problem is you are thinking about this as a software problem when it's an electrical problem. There are a lot of electrical components that have instantaneous response times, well known curves, and perform exactly the jobs you'd want faster than what you can do with software.

You want to minimize the amount of software between the accelerator and the motor precisely because you want to make the car as responsive as possible. Putting software in the middle creates delays and needs for very complex real time software and more expensive components.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#798

Post by HDThoreaun »

knowaveragejoe wrote: post #722
wsc981 wrote: post #702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2024 Toyota in Thailand introduced a cheap pick-up that is a bit under 15.000 USD when THB is converted to USD. I think it's rather neat - the basic model is /very/ basic, but lots of options to customize. https://www.toyota.co.th/en/model/hilux_champ?tab=commercial...

Why can't we get these in the US? This kind of simple utilitarian vehicle is exactly what I'm looking for.

Mostly regulatory nonsense. US has very specific requirements that mean cars driven in the US have to be basically specifically designed for the US. Other than that main problem is tariffs.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#799

Post by BanterTrouble »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #767
bumby wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of those “useless” sensors like tire pressure or backup camera are required by law. Even if you get a bare bones hatchback (manual transmission, manual locks, manual windows etc.) they’ll be forced to include those.

Honestly, good! I am so tired of these insane "I want nothing but an engine" spiritual boomers. They are making the road far more dangerous for everyone. Yes, I will force you to have automatic emergency breaking in your Model T hotrod. Yes, you will be mad. Yes, the road will be a lot safer. No I don't care about your boomer rage about technology. No you don't want to live with India tier road laws/standards - even…

The more you try to force this stuff. The more of reaction in the opposite direction you will get.

Re: The $25k car is going extinct?

#800

Post by polski-g »

__s wrote: post #606
toxik wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are required by law in no small part because car manufacturers want it to be. Compliance is a moat.

Rearview cameras are effective: https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/bibliography/ref/2130 I agree with having simpler SKUs, but rearview camera is not where to start

Funny story about this.

There was a woman who backed over her own kid in the driveway. For some reason, she was not imprisoned for vehicular manslaughter. So instead of not being in prison, she spent the next half decade lobbying congress to make backup cameras mandatory. And it happened. So now everyone's car costs $3k more.

It would have been cheaper to put her imprison than impose a $3k cost per every car sold in America since 2018.

Lots more people need to be imprisoned for manslaughter, and lots of people need their license taken away for "backing crashes".

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