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I'd rather read the prompt

claytonwramsey.com

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Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#791

Post by justlikereddit »

sn9 wrote: post #221

> I should hope that the purpose of a class writing exercise is not to create an artifact of text but force the student to think; a language model produces the former, not the latter. It's been incredibly blackpilling seeing how many intelligent professionals and academics don't understand this, especially in education and academia. They see work as the mere production of output, without ever thinking about how that…

If the purpose is thinking, why is the exercise so often about just producing an artifact out of text?

And so often also on wildly tangential subjects that are purely academical artifacts.

Cheating with LLMs is the inevitable conclusion of being a subject to a dragged out must-have education system that mostly just cheats the students of their time and money. That's the friendly way to put it.

I jumped through all the fucking hoops and now I'm paid handsomely, at every corner of the road leading here you see some pompous academic wankers with more medals than a photoshopped North Korean general.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#792

Post by StefanBatory »

jjmarr wrote: post #345
jameshart wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

> The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer. A decent amount of my professors don't know the answers because they bought the course, test questions, and lectures from Cengage. During exam review, they just regurgitate the answer justification that Cengage provided. During the lectures, they struggle to explain certain concepts since they didn't make the slides. Professors auto…

Meanwhile at my uni, at Masters, I'm being taught how to create and delete rows in HTML - I wish I wasn't kidding. :(

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#793

Post by eptcyka »

ChadNauseam wrote: post #358
jameshart wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve come across this analogy that I think works well: Using an LLM to do schoolwork is like taking a forklift to the gym. If all we were interested in was moving the weights around, you’d be right to use a tool to help you. But we’re doing this work for the effect it will have on you . The reason a teacher asks you a question is not because they don’t know the answer.

If students went to college only to learn, colleges wouldn't bother giving diplomas. Compare: My piano teacher doesn't give diplomas because none of her students would care, her students actually want to learn. When my piano teacher cancels class, I am disappointed because I wanted to learn. My piano teacher doesn't need to threaten me with bad grades to get me to practice outside of class (analogous to homework), be…

Sure, if we can agree that there exist courses for which we can agree that using an LLM to pass is a reasonable thing to do, would we also not agree that the course should be nuked from orbit?

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#794

Post by vel0city »

sethammons wrote: post #569
palata wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm there for the degree. If I wanted to learn and engage with material, I could save $60,000 I would argue that if it costs $60,000, both your education system and the recruitment in those companies that require this degree are broken. It's not the case in all countries though. Not that it is your fault, just stating the obvious.

My tuition was $35k a year 25 years ago. Just checked, and now it is $60k a year. Before room and board. Broken? Saddling individuals with a quarter million in debt when they are just starting life is absolutely broken. That they must indenture to be a modern professional (and buy hope for at least a middle class landing) is broken. The notion that everything must return a (generally, near-term) accounting profit is…

$35k/yr for tuition in 2000 was still an extremely expensive college. The school I went to in that decade was ~$10k/yr in tuition+fees and was the most expensive state school in my state at the time.

Even today, that university is considered expensive for the state at ~$8,200/semester.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#795

Post by johnnyanmac »

firesteelrain wrote: post #722
tcmart14 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would also say some of the attitude shift is also contradictory. The amount of people I interact with who have a lot of bad things to say about the education who tell me universities should focus on education in a general meanwhile also say that schools to should focus on student getting jobs. Probably one that has been heard before, something along the lines of, "why don't high schools teach plumbers courses." I m…

Where I am at, you can learn a skill in high school either via elective or a career technical track like working on airplanes, HVAC, construction, etc. Back in the 90s, I took automotive electives because I liked to work on cars back then. It would prepare you to work at a small automotive shop or as a hobby. I realized that it didn't make that much money so switched to computers.

And by my school years in the 00's those programs were slashed across the nation thanks to Bush. They just kept putting down the blue collar work and encouraged everyone to go to college. Right as they make student loans unbankruptale.

Always follow the money

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#796

Post by tenacious_tuna »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #754
EigenLord wrote: post #445

I think the answer to the professor's dismay is quite simple. Many people are in university to survive a brutal social darwinist economic system, not to learn and cultivate their minds. Only a very small handful of them were ever there to study Euler angles earnestly. The rest view it as a hoop they have to jump through to hopefully get a job that might as well be automated away by AI anyway. Also viewed from a condi…

Whose system though? I agree, it's weird for parents to say, "Jump through these hoops, and for every dollar you earn grinding sesame for some company, we'll give you an additional two." Working and educating yourself is decent and dignified, no? Is this a bad deal?

> Working and educating yourself is decent and dignified, no?

I think that depends radically on the nature of the work. I hold a BS in Computer Science but am at an organization that requires me to use LLMs as part of my performance evaluation; I could protest, but it puts my immigration status at risk (my employer has sponsored me into my current country). I view the things asked of me (using LLMs) as degrading, but I'm unable to effectively protest that despite being well-regarded as an engineer (by peers and past employers) and credentialed (BS in CS).

Put differently, most people do A Job because they need to put food on the table. One of my partners used to work in the veterinary field, which took an immense physical toll on them. They're much happier being (f)unemployed currently, being able to work in the garden and make good food and produce art, but our finances are suffering for it; they're hunting for jobs, but most of the current openings are pretty bad in terms of work/life balance and future opportunity.

Working is not inherently necessary; in our current economic system it's exploitatively-required in order to live any sort of decent and dignified life, and there's loads of stories about people who work but aren't treated with dignity (thru healthcare or housing or food strife).

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#797

Post by johnnyanmac »

mike_hearn wrote: post #611
lazide wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notably, the late 70’s and early 80’s is when large scale social changes started to happen due to high inflation and major problems in the US economy. Also a lot of social unrest, and a pretty unhinged president (Tricky Dick).

The same issues are seen in other countries. It's not specific to US presidents or policy. The insistence on maximizing university attendance was a widespread idea coming out of the left, e.g. in Britain it was heavily pushed by Tony Blair. The Blair government also raised tuition fees considerably. The stated rationale at the time was that degree holders earn more, so if everyone gets a degree, everyone will earn mo…

The mentality isn't, but the costs are US unique. You can afford to "explore" a bit of your youth if you're not going into 6 figures of debt.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#798

Post by achierius »

jampekka wrote: post #762
const_cast wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those students do exist, but there are an exceedingly small minority. Of course, they won't tell you this, because everyone likes to believe they're self-motivated. Most people just aren't. The simple question to ask is, when you go home, what do you do? If the answer is learn how to sew or work on your project car you've had for 10 months, you can probably learn on your own. If your answer is watch TV, play video ga…

There are plenty of students studying out of interest. It's very common to e.g. study excess courses. Many doing their theses can work very independently and go way beyond what's required. Highly self-driven students are a minority, but not a rarity. People do things out of being interested and enjoying learning. It shouldn't be a surprise in a website called hacker news.

Speaking as someone who studied excess courses back in the day, I still agree with the GP. There's a big difference between being able to pursue random sparks of interest (as might someone picking up a course they find interesting) and consistently studying even when you aren't necessarily inspired by the material, or when the material is so hard it stops being fun. I spend a lot of time working on projects in my spare time even today, but I can think of only one case where I worked anywhere near as hard on one of those as I did on the projects for my university's OS course, or compilers course, or etc. Even students who do regularly go above and beyond would likely struggle without the structure to A) tell them what to learn, B) give them motivation -- because of course many students who do go the extra mile are still motivated by grades, prestige, research opportunities, etc.

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#799

Post by neogodless »

> Lately I’ve seen more people in their cars thwarting stoplight boredom—­that is, unable to sit unmediated for even the few moments that it takes a red light to turn green, they reach for their smartphones.

I wish it was only at stoplights. But then just a few days ago, I witnessed a totally unnecessary accident. Left-lane got green, and someone in the straight lane noticed the movement but didn't look up and drove right into the car in front of them...

Re: I'd rather read the prompt

#800

Post by firesteelrain »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #795
firesteelrain wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I am at, you can learn a skill in high school either via elective or a career technical track like working on airplanes, HVAC, construction, etc. Back in the 90s, I took automotive electives because I liked to work on cars back then. It would prepare you to work at a small automotive shop or as a hobby. I realized that it didn't make that much money so switched to computers.

And by my school years in the 00's those programs were slashed across the nation thanks to Bush. They just kept putting down the blue collar work and encouraged everyone to go to college. Right as they make student loans unbankruptale. Always follow the money

They are still around and I am in a Red state.
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