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Redis is open source again

antirez.com

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Re: Redis is open source again

#791

Post by detaro »

codeguro wrote: post #790
detaro wrote: post #625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problematic clause is this one: > if you modify the Program, your modified version must prominently offer all users interacting with it remotely through a computer network (if your version supports such interaction) an opportunity to receive the Corresponding Source The application does not have to directly provide its own exact source code, but it must advertise where to find it. And it's quite unclear what exac…

A special endpoint e.g. /about or /license that lists the terms of the AGPL and a link to the source code would suffice. That's not difficult or unreasonable at all.

Where do you add that to redis, which does not have a HTTP server, and what makes this endpoint "prominent"?

Re: Redis is open source again

#792

Post by Brian_K_White »

zwaps wrote: post #776
Brian_K_White wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one needs to come up with anything. OSS is already just fine. I don't know what you want, but it seems to be something you never had any right to, and no one needs to come up with anything to satisfy it.

It’s easy to say everyone else is wrong but the majority of innovation and new projects nowadays are coming from people wanting to do oss while still supporting a business with it. That is having it be more than a hobby. Now you can say that this itself is already a misunderstanding and maybe you are right, but I think you forget also that software reality has changed and indeed there was a time when oss fulltime was…

Everyone else is not wrong, and I did not say they were, and so any argument you try based on that is already voided nonsense before you start.

Some people are wrong. It's easy to say that because it has always been true for everything in the world. This topic is no different.

If you want to suggest that you are not wrong, or that I am, you have to present an argument that holds water for that, not anything else.

No one owes anyone a business selling OSS, not even the author of said OSS. If you write something that you want to make money selling, then you are not interested in participating in OSS. That's it. Full stop.

Sell your software honestly.

"But I can't if it's not..." So what? Ok then don't sell it. It's no one else's problem that you have a misguided notion of why OSS exists and what it is good for and why one should spend any time or effort contributing to it.

All the other wailing and crying stems from bullshit you never had any right to in the first place. Not just legally or technically but morally and common-sensely.

Re: Redis is open source again

#793

Post by palata »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #792
zwaps wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s easy to say everyone else is wrong but the majority of innovation and new projects nowadays are coming from people wanting to do oss while still supporting a business with it. That is having it be more than a hobby. Now you can say that this itself is already a misunderstanding and maybe you are right, but I think you forget also that software reality has changed and indeed there was a time when oss fulltime was…

Everyone else is not wrong, and I did not say they were, and so any argument you try based on that is already voided nonsense before you start. Some people are wrong. It's easy to say that because it has always been true for everything in the world. This topic is no different. If you want to suggest that you are not wrong, or that I am, you have to present an argument that holds water for that, not anything else. No…

> "But I can't if it's not..." So what? Ok then don't sell it.

Interestingly, when it's coming from TooBigTech, apparently they're happy to say "But we can't make viable LLMs if we don't abuse copyright" (yes, they said it). And apparently it works.

Not that I disagree with your point, though: nobody is owed a business selling OSS.

Re: Redis is open source again

#794

Post by zwaps »

palata wrote: post #780
zwaps wrote: post #772

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you are wrong. People want adoption by any company other than hyperscalers. People would be happy to sell service contracts and the like while keeping their code foss, if only hyperscalers weren’t direct competitors to that. But the reality is that current copyleft licenses means immediate blacklist by most companies legal department. Which is why almost all cooyleft companies offer copyleft plus some corporate li…

> But the reality is that current copyleft licenses means immediate blacklist by most companies legal department. Because they always manage to find permissively-licenced alternatives! There are many different copyleft licences (not only the GPL family, take e.g. MPL or EUPL) that can be used and that are not "viral". > The combination of unclear legal precedent and corporate governance means that copyleft in it’s cu…

that copyleft licenses have disputed consequences in the EU is a fact, which makes them inherently risky

Re: Redis is open source again

#795

Post by zwaps »

zwaps wrote: post #794
palata wrote: post #780

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the reality is that current copyleft licenses means immediate blacklist by most companies legal department. Because they always manage to find permissively-licenced alternatives! There are many different copyleft licences (not only the GPL family, take e.g. MPL or EUPL) that can be used and that are not "viral". > The combination of unclear legal precedent and corporate governance means that copyleft in it’s cu…

that copyleft licenses have disputed consequences in the EU is a fact, which makes them inherently risky

I read papers about copyleft in general but I personally have run in with this for agpl, i should say

Re: Redis is open source again

#796

Post by zwaps »

Brian_K_White wrote: post #792
zwaps wrote: post #776

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s easy to say everyone else is wrong but the majority of innovation and new projects nowadays are coming from people wanting to do oss while still supporting a business with it. That is having it be more than a hobby. Now you can say that this itself is already a misunderstanding and maybe you are right, but I think you forget also that software reality has changed and indeed there was a time when oss fulltime was…

Everyone else is not wrong, and I did not say they were, and so any argument you try based on that is already voided nonsense before you start. Some people are wrong. It's easy to say that because it has always been true for everything in the world. This topic is no different. If you want to suggest that you are not wrong, or that I am, you have to present an argument that holds water for that, not anything else. No…

I find this interesting. In your view, who should produce oss and under what circumstances? Is sustainability of oss anything you worry about?

Re: Redis is open source again

#797

Post by zwaps »

palata wrote: post #783
zwaps wrote: post #775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyleft are sadly unclear legally which is why essentially no company uses copyleft licenses even if they should. I mean the intend of apgl is exactly right, but in practice it means you can never ever use it in a company even if you really do not even want to change it or sell it or host it in isolation in any way. That is really frustrating. Most internal licensing tools i have seen just literally blacklist any di…

> Copyleft are sadly unclear legally Do you really mean copyleft, or do you mean the GPL family? What about MPL and EUPL? I have heard the legal issues with GPL, never for MPL and EUPL.

Essentially yes. While weak copyleft would be fine for the use cases i have seen, the distinction and the licenses have yet to be tested in a EU court.

As a a consequence there are a numbers of legal options on the matter and as a consequence to that, it is a very hard no from most compliance deps i have seen

Re: Redis is open source again

#798

Post by Brian_K_White »

palata wrote: post #793
Brian_K_White wrote: post #792

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone else is not wrong, and I did not say they were, and so any argument you try based on that is already voided nonsense before you start. Some people are wrong. It's easy to say that because it has always been true for everything in the world. This topic is no different. If you want to suggest that you are not wrong, or that I am, you have to present an argument that holds water for that, not anything else. No…

> "But I can't if it's not..." So what? Ok then don't sell it. Interestingly, when it's coming from TooBigTech, apparently they're happy to say "But we can't make viable LLMs if we don't abuse copyright" (yes, they said it). And apparently it works. Not that I disagree with your point, though: nobody is owed a business selling OSS.

llm vendors are violating copyright. I don't know what that has to do with this conversation.

Re: Redis is open source again

#799

Post by Brian_K_White »

amrocha wrote: post #740
jpc0 wrote: post #699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and we agree that you need money to hire devs to maintain a successful large scale OSS project Therein lies our disagreement, you don’t need to. If you are amazon and upstream is willing to accept requests then amazon can hire devs, and if someone eats their cake then those devs will eventually migrate to the new location. As someone who did the initial work for OSS I put the code out there, if I dislike the direct…

If Amazon had to do enough maintenance work they’d just fork it and do it on their own proprietary version. They have literally done that. This goes back to my original point. You’re living in fantasy land.

What exactly is the nature of this fantasyland? I have to have said I wanted or expected something for that to make any sense. You make silly claims based on nothing. That is not an argument.

In fact it's the other way around. Expecting to enjoy both the benefits of OSS and the benefits of collecting rent at the same time for the same thing is the fantasyland.

Re: Redis is open source again

#800

Post by spyc »

c0l0 wrote: post #33

I contributed a minor (but imho still neat :p) improvement to Redis under its original license, and personally moved to using redict when the unexpected license change to SSPL was announced - and I was feeling betrayed as a contributor to a properly-FOSS-codebase. (Had they switched to AGPL right away, I'd have been perfectly fine with that change from a moral perspective, ftr.) I have a great deal of respect for ant…

Lost trust for sure. Who knows if Redis would be AGPL now if Valkey did not exist.
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