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ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#791

Post by wernercd »

anon84873628 wrote: post #585
pgeorgi wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? Spend tons of money on iron dome to shoot down the rockets and hope that Hamas won't manage to conduct another massacre, even if "only" half the scope of October 7? This mess features not one but two parties who currently reject the concept of a cease fire.

>All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? And then everyone who wants peace invests lots of money and expertise over a long time to build a modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society, despite whatever setbacks, attacks, and sabotage occur from within and without. The only way to have peace is to give people a better option than becoming terrorists.

Doesn't matter how much people who want peace invest when terrorists who want to continue fighting are in charge. There is no "modern, prosperous, stable Palestinian society" when terrorists are in charge.

They have had better options... and still choose the path they are on.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#792

Post by nsoonhui »

megous wrote: post #745
locallost wrote: post #466

My views on the situation aside, the clearest I saw anyone communicate the issues from a global angle was the former French prime minister Dominique de Villepin Translated here: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1718201487132885246 Viewed from the angle of the West, I think the message it needs to avoid isolating itself from the world is very unusual for Western media and important. Quote: "Westerners must ope…

"Today we are faced with an Islamist cause, led by Hamas. Obviously, this kind of cause is absolute and allows no form of negotiation." Lost me there, because this is not the framing that matches reality. There were several instances where Hamas was willing to form unity government with Fatah/PLO, to share power, negotiate, to do things like that. It's first and foremost a national liberation movement. The movement i…

Edit: My this comment is being downvoted despite stating just a plain fact. Hopefully the downvoters can do everyone a service by explaining what's wrong with it.

Like you said, HAMAS exists solely for the sake of resisting Jewish occupation [0], from the river to the sea, which also means the extermination of Israel and Jews [1]. And their conviction stems from their religion, Islam, which allows them to persist despite all the opposition on earth because they are hoping for a reward in heaven[2].

And of course Israel won't allow itself to be exterminated ( hopefully this point is clear enough, no citation needed). So how can there be negotiation?

0. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/ha...

1. https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/From-the-River-to-the-Sea

2. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL03124515/

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#793

Post by reissbaker »

amluto wrote: post #762
reissbaker wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

A major problem is that the Gazan people have very legitimate problems with Israel, and this leads to a situation in which enough of them become militant to cause serious problems. Solving that seems like it needs a more wholistic approach than simply trying to get rid of the militants at the cost of causing everyone else to have an even bigger beef with Israel.

Sure, and the people of Iraq had very legitimate problems with NATO. Nonetheless the West dismantled ISIS. People can have legitimate grievances without committing mass murder and rape, and in fact I think the mass murder and rape committed by Hamas have been very counterproductive for the lives of Gazans.

What would you have Israel do, that you think would result in it not getting continually attacked by Hamas? Recall that when Israel dismantled its Gazan settlements and withdrew its own citizens at gunpoint nearly 20 years ago — in the hope that would help solve the problem — that's when Hamas took power...

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#794

Post by JumpCrisscross »

throwaway421967 wrote: post #621
ajb wrote: post #36

The actual rulings can be found at https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... and a summary is: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192... Dissents etc can be found in the case page: https://www.icj-cij.org/case/192 - in particular the opinion of Judge Aharon Barak, the Israeli ad-hoc Judge (a peculiarity of the ICJ is that each side gets to add a judge, but it doesn't have m…

Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts. - Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces). - Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive.…

> 63.8% and 66% are indeed close numbers, don't see why would it be flagged…Israel's numbers are sufficient to make that claim

What claim?

As far as civilian casualty rates go, mid 60s is nothing to be proud of, but square in the middle of the pack when it comes to modern wars [1].

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8581199/#B12

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#795

Post by [deleted] »

xdennis wrote: post #743
throwaway421967 wrote: post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the comment that I replied to was flagged, I'm posting this here because it is simply a statement of facts. - Judge Barak's numbers on civilian deaths on 7th october are simply wrong and could've been easily checked. 766 civilians were killed, 1200 was the total number of deaths (including armed forces). - Israel's own numbers say "2 civilians killed for every one militant"[1], that's 66% in the Gaza offensive.…

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#796

Post by gafferongames »

aurelien_gasser wrote: post #681
ajross wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All correct and yet, what should happen? Israel stops their campaign. And then? It remains a mess, but less of a mess? Look, it's all bad guys running the show in that hell hole of a desert. There are no trusted entities anywhere able to run a government that isn't somewhere between actively antagonistic and actively genocidal toward half the local population. Nonetheless a status quo with less shooting and death i…

> Hamas killed fewer people than Israel did/is That's an understatement, Hamas killed less than 1,000 civilians, Israel killed 20,000+

Hamas directly and intentionally targeted civilians. Israel is doing what it can to limit civilian casualties while destroying Hamas. Hamas is making that very difficult by blending in with the population, putting command centers under major hospitals and so on.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#797

Post by Jochim »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #495
hypeit wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel must face the reality that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land. There is no solution until that happens. Just like apartheid South Africa was dismantled, Israel has to face the same fate or forever be locked into warfare and oppressing Palestinians.

> that is an apartheid state that exists on occupied land I’ve heard this line from people who say the West Bank and Gaza are the occupied land, to those who say all of Israel is occupied land. The former makes sense. The latter is extreme. > like apartheid South Africa was dismantled South Africa wasn’t as militarised as the Levant has become, unfortunately. As long as Iran seeks the destruction of Israel, itself an…

> to those who say all of Israel is occupied land. The former makes sense. The latter is extreme.

In what way is it not? The state was created by western powers less than 100 years ago and has aggressively pursued European and US immigration since then.

The current state of things is an entirely manufactured situation and it's becoming more and more farcical. There's only so many times you can interview a guy with a British or New York accent talking about his ancestral right to the desert before things start looking a little bit weird.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#798

Post by yieldcrv »

SirSavary wrote: post #768
reissbaker wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

Note: ISIS was a bunch of European guys who got radicalized and then travelled to the middle east; Hamas is homegrown and was democratically elected by the people of the region.

Democratically elected by plurality, where the only competition was incompetent, and still only won by plurality… and hasnt had an election in 18 years, which means 50% of the population has never had a democratically exercised opinion because they werent born yet, and of the other 50% not even 50% of the ones that voted had voted for Hamas

people really act like thats a “gotcha”

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#799

Post by SuperNinKenDo »

throwaway260124 wrote: post #53

A great article from an international law prof explaining the finding can be found here: https://www.ejiltalk.org/icj-indicates-provisional-measures-... The blog has articles on the topic from both sides from numerous lawyers

Thanks, that was extremely helpful in understanding not just the ruling, but the remit of the court.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to prevent genocide in Gaza, stops short of ordering ceasefire

#800

Post by dmix »

amluto wrote: post #762
reissbaker wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the approach the West took with ISIS, which involved similarly one-sided fights against terrorist forces [1], nor do I think it's an approach that would have worked. When "everyone who wants peace" doesn't include the people in control of the guns and rockets, who instead want to kill their enemies by any means necessary (and themselves do not respect international law), you can't simply dialogue your way…

A major problem is that the Gazan people have very legitimate problems with Israel, and this leads to a situation in which enough of them become militant to cause serious problems. Solving that seems like it needs a more wholistic approach than simply trying to get rid of the militants at the cost of causing everyone else to have an even bigger beef with Israel.

> Solving that seems like it needs a more wholistic approach than simply trying to get rid of the militants at the cost of causing everyone else to have an even bigger beef with Israel.

Like giving NGOs money which get funneled into overt terrorists groups by the corrupt politicians planted by the same terrorists? Aka the status quo for multiple decades well before Netanyahu was ever prime minister.

It’s notable none of the surrounding Muslim countries want anything to do with being the neutral power brokers to temporarily help run the state because they know as well as everyone else it’s a never ending hornets nest, that they’ll have as little control of it as Fatah and the various other iterations of “stable” Palestinian governance, who had little ability or interest to quell the extreme violent fringes. Which in every other country in history means control via police, courts, or worst case military… not tacit appeasement and turning a blind eye.

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