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"Lighten up"

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Re: "Lighten up"

#791

Post by mechanical_fish »

ErrantX wrote: post #677
mechanical_fish wrote: post #672

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the story. This is why, though my approach has been gently and justly accused of being "passive" downthread, the passivity is the key in this case. Don't overtly "defend" Amy. (Or Chuck, or any teamaker of any gender, for that matter.) Don't use the word "sexism", don't start doing math on how often each team member has been asked to make tea in the last two years, and don't otherwise call attention to you…

I've been thinking about this, and to be honest that could equally be seen as sexist, and also backfire. Things like But you may be in a better strategic position than Amy to negotiate the necessary change could certainly be considered sexist if voiced. What you are suggesting is much the same as what I did do - simply missing out the overt portion. It has advantages; it probably saves people being put in awkward pos…

Things like But you may be in a better strategic position than Amy to negotiate the necessary change* could certainly be considered sexist if voiced.*

Trying to teach manners through the Internet is like trying to teach bicycling by correspondence course.

Yes, of course I wouldn't say that out loud, ever, except in a high-level meta-conversation about an imaginary office populated by imaginary people drinking imaginary tea. In the real world, I would ideally say nothing at all, except perhaps "I'm going to make some tea; would anyone like some?" And then there would be tea. Delicious tea.

Re: "Lighten up"

#792

Post by elptacek »

toyg wrote: post #790
elptacek wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not true. We get dressed with other women in mind. We also shop off each other's bodies and generally take fashion cues from each other. This is why women in the Loop are wearing short skirts and strappy sandals and women in the far west suburbs wear print turtlenecks from Land's End.

Of course, because other women are competition . Or would you be so happy to meet three friends with the same exact dress, at some social occasion with other people in formal wear? Most males would love nothing better than to wear exactly what everybody else is.

Or it's just fun to buy all the shiny, colorful, sparkly stuff and flounce about in it.

Re: "Lighten up"

#793

Post by mhartl »

MartinCron wrote: post #787
mhartl wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really saying that there's no middle ground between being actively offensive and being insufferably bland? The short answer is, yes, there is a middle ground, but it won't stay "middle" for long: the set of "offensive" things expands with time. Many jokes and phrases that were part of the inoffensive "middle ground" twenty or thirty years ago are now considered offensive. To the politically correct, this is m…

There's a difference, at least to me, about changing standards in language (which, as outsiders to particular communities can seem arbitrary and capricious-- wait a minute, "Queer is OK to say again?" and how is "person of color" materially different from "Colored person") and things like brazen workplace hostility as described in the original blog post. A lot of being actively offensive is more than just the specifi…

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"

I can easily imagine a world in which such a remark is routinely interpreted as a compliment. I can also imagine a world in which it is routinely considered offensive. The problem is that we live in a world where you can't easily determine a priori what will be considered "offensive", due in large part to a social convention that says: the victim is always right. This attitude was exemplified by a black University of Wisconsin student who objected to the word "niggardly" (which means "stingy"): "I was in tears, shaking," she told the faculty. "It's not up to the rest of the class to decide whether my feelings are valid."*

Political reality makes it exceedingly difficult to draw a line in the sand and say: Your taking offense is what's unreasonable. Stop being such a baby, grow a thicker skin, and lighten up. Absent such a line, the list of "offensive" things grows without bound.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_about_the_word_%2... In this case, her complaint helped serve to smash the university's speech code, but this type of outcome is the exception rather than the rule.

Re: "Lighten up"

#794

Post by bethly »

erichocean wrote: post #418
Jabbles wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal i…

I don't disagree with anything you have to say, but a thought did enter my mind: At what point did we become okay with excluding sexuality from human lives, or a large portion of them -- the time we spend working? Sexuality is every bit as much a "human" endeavor as, say, eating -- and we don't (currently) say: never eat at work, work is for work only (despite the fact that food does separate people from each other,…

Defecation is human too, but we don't do that in public. Violence is human, but we do that in dojos and sports arenas and shooting ranges, instead of at work or in the streets. Religious conversion is a human experience, but it is considered rude to witness at work. Some parts of humanity are best participated in in spaces set aside for those purposes, rather than imposed on everyone at any moment.

Eating doesn't affect anyone around you (though tuna sandwiches are definitely an issue to get HR involved in...) Sexuality, violence, religious conversion and the stench/filth of defecation affect people around you whether they want to deal with them or not. Ergo, it is rude to make "working" contingent on dealing with your literal or metaphorical shit.

Re: "Lighten up"

#795

Post by peterwwillis »

I hope one day we can all work in environments that are completely non-hostile. Some jobs seem to be a lot more rough than others, in my experience. I've never had to deal with sexism or prejudice but i've had my share of crap to take from coworkers. I've also worked with highly professional, straight-laced people who know not to be asshats and treat people fairly.

I really hope you don't stop doing what you love because of where you work.

Re: "Lighten up"

#796

Post by sophacles »

IsaacSchlueter wrote: post #767
sophacles wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I answered this on the blog comment you made too, hopefully it will get readership in both places: This is not a bad question. I would like to make several points here, and hope a woman commenter chimes in with first-hand perspective too. First of all, the "guys joking and jabbing each other" thing is true. But it really isn't that simple of a social interaction. At the early "getting to know each other" stages, the…

its funny for a core group member to yet again make a joke about how Isaac can't be trusted because he's a mexican thief Over the line, dude. Not cool.

It started because Isaac would always say this stuff like "you know i can't do that, im a lazy mexican" or "you sure you want to leave me alone with your stuff, im a mexican" and so on. At first it was just awkward and kind of "wtf", but after a while it became a thing with that group, we would say that stuff too. But that sort of illustrates the point -- the things that are funny with a core group that knows the back story and the actual intent and meaning of a running gag is different than with strangers.

Re: "Lighten up"

#797

Post by MartinCron »

mhartl wrote: post #793
MartinCron wrote: post #787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference, at least to me, about changing standards in language (which, as outsiders to particular communities can seem arbitrary and capricious-- wait a minute, "Queer is OK to say again?" and how is "person of color" materially different from "Colored person") and things like brazen workplace hostility as described in the original blog post. A lot of being actively offensive is more than just the specifi…

"Oop, Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!" I can easily imagine a world in which such a remark is routinely interpreted as a compliment. I can also imagine a world in which it is routinely considered offensive. The problem is that we live in a world where you can't easily determine a priori what will be considered "offensive", due in large part to a social convention that says: the victi…

The "niggardly" example is cute, as is not being able to use "oriental" to describe John Cho's ancestry (he's Korean). I think that they serve as a distraction to the actual issue at hand, though. The actual issue at hand is that "lighten up" is such an obvious response, but it's usually not actually helpful.

The problem is that we live in a world where you can't easily determine a priori what will be considered "offensive"

That's only a problem if you're not secure enough to handle feedback on your behavior. The original article is all about how she wants to be able to address these very real slights so that people can know what to do (or what not to do) next time. What happens when she gives the specific feedback of telling people what not to do? They respond with the classic bullying tactic of telling her to grow a thick skin.

So, you make a mistake and offend somebody, fortunately that's not a capital offense. You get to continue living and learn not to say bullshit sexist things and learn how to be a real adult. Easy.

Re: "Lighten up"

#799

Post by jabits »

I can't up this enough. My wife is a Java dev (I am a .Net dev), and I hear about the crap she has to endure almost weekly. It truly makes me want to walk into her client site and smack some faces. It is so hard to believe that this can be so common, especially since the field is made up mostly of younger "enlightened and tolerant" guys. This speaks so badly for our field (and society in general). (Now we are both in the early stages of "age-ism", but hey, we can fight that with talent, right?!?)

Re: "Lighten up"

#800

Post by lsiclait »

n_time wrote: post #728
arien wrote: post #722

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The moment we stop looking at "men" and "women" or "black" and "white" and start looking at "people" is when these things are truly sorted out.

This is never going to happen, and IMHO should not. Equality is not equivalency and none of us are colour blind. The key is accepting differences when they ARE there. That said, class is a way bigger difference than race. :P EDIT: I'm definitely not saying that the subjective perceived differences in gender and race are real, or that bigotry and ignorance are cool.

Where I disagree with you on "colour blindness" is that your statement assumes that gender and race are reasonable and obvious ways of categorizing people. How often do you group people by whether or not their earlobes are attached? Or by the curliness of their hair? We have made gender, race, etc important constructs. It would be difficult, but not impossible, to make them unimportant.

Accepting differences is a good thing. However the magnitude of the perceived difference can make accepting it either easier or harder

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