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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#791

Post by leshow »

throwaway894345 wrote: post #678
leshow wrote: post #594

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a misunderstanding of the current situation. The demands were varied, but common ask was _not_ just a reduction in policing paired with a ballooning police budget. Ironically, the "defund" movement ended up causing an even more reactionary movement such that police actually got more funding. Protesters wanted to re-allocate resources away from the police towards other services, so that cops are not the f…

Society did not get abruptly and dramatically unequal between 2013 and 2015 nor between 2019 and 2020. Socioeconomics doesn’t predict these crime surges. Richard Rosenfeld speaking to The Guardian: “The only explanation that gets the timing right is a version of the Ferguson Effect” Vox reporting on Travis Campbell’s research: “Campbell’s research indicates that these protests correlate with a 10% increase in murders…

If you don't think there is any correlation between the material conditions of people and crime I don't know what to tell you. You're basically subscribing to essentialism. There are plenty of cranks with ivy league degrees in economics.

edit: You are cherry picking your data points. I spent literally 30 seconds looking up your first quote it's not even congruent with what you're saying.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#792

Post by SoftAnnaLee »

sjducb wrote: post #675
koprulusector wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

You can easily make the same case about 4 Chan. 4 Chan is rooted in things that are objectively good: free thought, satire and not taking anything too seriously.

This is a mischaracterization. 4chan was founded as a new place for Something Awful anime fans to post hentai and "loli" content after SA banned such things. It was always about contraband and bad-taste culture. The "dirtbag free speech" crowd flocked to it because of the side-effect of that initial culture being anti-moderation and being allowed to post whatever they wanted.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#793

Post by conductr »

rootusrootus wrote: post #736
Perceval wrote: post #677

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels This is the counter-culture. The dominant culture opposes all of these things and makes obligatory the celebration of the opposite values. 4chan being one of the few lightly-restricted free speech zones allows for culture generation that would be censored anywhere else. Counter-culture is supposed to be edgy, just like jazz and rock were edgy, grea…

> jazz and rock were edgy, greasers/rockabilly were edgy, beatniks were edgy, hippies were edgy, disco was edgy, punks were edgy, LGBTQ was edgy This list implies that "homophobic, racist, sexist, emotionally and mentally stunted incels" is destined to be normal and acceptable in the future. That sounds awful.

Edgy because the status quo was so defined. The status quo is loosening up, so edges aren't so apparent. I'm in my 40s and my high school experience in the 90s sounds nothing like what I hear about today. We had well defined cliques. Today, except where bullying exists, it sounds like people aren't so hive minded but individuals and just float around various friend groups.

This may be unpopular topic, but I actually think having a non-traditional sexuality/gender is the new 'edgy'. I know that implies it's just a trend/fad and not a reality for some individuals. It seems to have increased in such a massive relative basis that I can't help but think it actually is a trend versus following some natural occurrence. Or perhaps, given significant hindsight I could see that the definitions around these things is just undergoing an accelerating foundational shift. We know ancient societies had massively different ideas for what was and wasn't normal. Hell, very recently ago our own society had very different norms for age of consent and age of "child".

Sorry if any of this is or sounds offensive, I look at it from a statistical mindset and what baseline seems to have existed. It's totally possible that societies around the world have used religion and such to suppress the baseline and it's starting to naturally come back - I wouldn't be able to observe things like that.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#794

Post by wizzwizz4 »

Nasrudith wrote: post #714
nemo44x wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People should read “Gravity's Rainbow” - or at least an analysis of it. A major point/theme is that no matter what you do, if it’s useful/profitable/empowering/etc then it will be co-opted by “the man” or whatever. There’s a never ending graveyard of counter culture artifacts that existed to spit on the mainstream that were nearly merged in, packaged, and sold back to the hordes of consumers that think they’re outsid…

The cited goal of counterculture has always struck me as utterly incoherent and inconsistent not only with its own actions but it itself. It always fell into the same self-contradictory hypocrisy with no self awareness. Look at the "counter-culture archetype" and how well it fits. - Dress the same to express your individuality" paradox. - Don't follow the rules but follow the rigidly defined rules about what is real…

That sounds like an issue with mainstream counterculture. :-)

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#795

Post by wizzwizz4 »

farmaway wrote: post #671
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #650

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Disagreement over what "basic decency" means is the heart of the LGBTIAP+ debate, Okay, let's put it another way. Pretty much all of them agreed with me about the entitlement to basic decency. From this, I conclude that my views about basic decency probably aren't all that controversial, after all. This disagreement exists online, and in the press. I haven't seen it in the real world. If "the heart of the […] debat…

The President of the United States of America: https://nypost.com/2022/10/24/biden-calls-curbs-on-treatment... https://www.huffpost.com/entry/biden-transgender-youth-state... I have family and friends in K-12 education. If you question LGBTQIAP+ or fail to affirm a kids' gender self-identification, you are out of a job. Wesley Yang has covered this topic extensively, and is a good one to follow on Twitter: https://we…

> The President of the United States of America

Is not really a real person.¹ But if you think he's an example, he'll suffice for this. Please, state his position, and explain why you disagree with it.

> If you question LGBTQIAP+ or fail to affirm a kids' gender self-identification, you are out of a job.

I mean, yeah. That kind of power over children comes with a responsibility to keep your politics out of school – or, out of your position as authority figure, anyway. (A few, very few, teachers at my school managed the latter – and they only used this talent to rant a little about budget cuts to education, during times where we weren't obliged to listen.)

If a kid thinks she's a prophet of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it is not for a teacher to tell her otherwise. If a kid thinks he fancies his best friend, it is not for a teacher to tell him that's wrong. If a kid says they're a fairy princess from Mars? To insist otherwise² is not the role or purpose of a schoolteacher.

> That approach

I didn't describe an approach, there: just a vague philosophy. I think you're reading too much into my words. What do you think the problems with my position are?

---

¹: At least, not while he's acting in his position as head of state. I elaborated on this in a sibling post: real-life people will tell you what they believe, but public figures (especially politicians) often tell you what they think will make you believe something. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34616318

²: A teacher could mention that no life, nor evidence of civilisation, has been found on Mars. Using this as a rebuttal of the child's claim to Martian fairy royalty would be overstepping.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#796

Post by germinalphrase »

notch898a wrote: post #746
germinalphrase wrote: post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re a old young person, but you’ll be a young old person soon enough.

IMO having a kid is the cutoff between old young and young old. Have a kid and the walls move in fast. Used to live in alternative shelters, backpacking in the outdoors for months on end? Yeah child services says that's substandard housing and abuse. Hell there were child abuse investigation just for a family backpacking the Appalachian trail, and that's a boring ass well planned thing that even old square fuckers ca…

I don’t disagree with the general spirit of what you’re saying, but as a former teacher the observations that fall under Mandatory Reporting are fairly specific. Additionally, I know more than one CPS worker on a personal basis and the types of things that get a child removed from the house are religious and severe. Nothing that you have said would cause me to call in a report unless your kid showed up to class with signs of violence on their body. The stories that get reported on are reported because they are exceptional, not normal. I lived a property less, transient lifestyle for years before settling in a place. I don’t write this to change your mind, but to respond in kind.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#797

Post by czx4f4bd »

mshake2 wrote: post #783
banannaise wrote: post #733

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> LGBTQ was edgy Aside from monogamous gay people, queerness is very much still edgy and not particularly accepted by the dominant/mainstream culture. (This is not a positive thing, but it is reality.)

>queerness is very much still edgy and not particularly accepted by the dominant/mainstream culture Being supported by advertising, movies, tv shows, signaled by major corporations and workplaces, and supported top-down by the government means its edgy and counterculture? We live in completely different realities I guess.

> Aside from monogamous gay people

Where are all these ads, movies, and TV shows depicting non-monogamous queer relationships? How is the government providing this "top-down" support? Are there now tax breaks for people in poly relationships?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#798

Post by notch898a »

germinalphrase wrote: post #796
notch898a wrote: post #746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO having a kid is the cutoff between old young and young old. Have a kid and the walls move in fast. Used to live in alternative shelters, backpacking in the outdoors for months on end? Yeah child services says that's substandard housing and abuse. Hell there were child abuse investigation just for a family backpacking the Appalachian trail, and that's a boring ass well planned thing that even old square fuckers ca…

I don’t disagree with the general spirit of what you’re saying, but as a former teacher the observations that fall under Mandatory Reporting are fairly specific. Additionally, I know more than one CPS worker on a personal basis and the types of things that get a child removed from the house are religious and severe . Nothing that you have said would cause me to call in a report unless your kid showed up to class with…

Yeah I agree there are people all over the board as far as their interpretations. I have family in healthcare and teaching. I believe most of the mandatory reporters are reasonable and possibly even willing to violate the law as they know the foster system is often even worse than living with even a physically abuse parent, but unfortunately the parent and child come into contact with a LOT of reporters over the years and thus they must optimize for the very worst of the ones they will encounter rather than the most reasonable.

Two thirds of black families in my county are investigated. My family have coworkers that explicitly state they will mandatory report things like a parent seeking health care to reduce their substance use.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#799

Post by joyeuse6701 »

at-w wrote: post #704
koprulusector wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

"I don't think anyone will look back with fondness or positivity towards a bunch of drug-pushing, mentally stunted adulterous freeloaders that disrespect hard working people, people putting their lives on the line for their country, people devoted to their families, and the nation that allows them the freedom to exist in the first place--while jerking themselves into a froth over who's the edgiest edge lord." Even as…

“Nearly every major social issue of the late 20th century exploded as a direct result of hippie culture bringing drugs and hostility towards the family and social institutions into the mainstream.”

Sources? Wasn’t the crack epidemic more related to Contra and the breaking of the family unit due to disproportionate incarceration of black males by the government in attempt to break their political power via the selective targeting of specific drugs by the govt, i.e marijuana and crack over cocaine?

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#800

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

koprulusector wrote: post #560
narrator wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The way you know 4chan is the counterculture is every time someone releases a new generative art tool, 4chan figures out a way to do stuff with it that makes the creators have to restrict and/or shut it down. Like in the 1960s how the mainstream culture would whisper under their breath and point in shock and horror at hippies and try to get them banned from various public venues, and send mobs to beat them up, we hav…

The hippies were shit on during the sixties because of politics and the Vietnam war. The hippies were a big part of the anti war movement. The simplest and quickest way to shutting the movement down was to criminalize its constituents, like hippies, or civil rights activists, through tactics like draconian drug laws and a drug war. The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discov…

> The hippies were rooted in things that were objectively good: peace, love, self discovery, acceptance, mutual aid, egalitarianism, free thought.

I tend to disagree that these are objectively good.

One argument against is that any society that holds these as ideals will quickly be over run by societies that don't.

Being disagreeable can have adaptive advantages.

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