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Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

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Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#791
post #784

To me, this relates to a broader subject: the way prices are displayed. In Europe, laws basically mandate that what you as a customer see on a price tag or price list, is what you ultimately pay. You don't have to do any guesswork, looking at the fine print, compute anything in your head. You pay the price that is displayed, and there should be no expectation from any one that you pay anything above that. When I go t…

the tax being calculated separately seems suspiciously petty to my French ass.

I’m used to it now, but the only rational I could find by asking around “why is the tax not part of the final displayed price” were :

- “it depends from state to state.” Taxes are also different in Spain, France, Germany and Italy … we use the same currency and we don’t feel the urge to display our taxes by removing them from the displayed prices. Even in places like Andorra, where the tax on Tabacco is close to 0.

- a less common rationale; often find in the libertarian type of interlocutors. “It’s to show what the government is taking you”

Sadly; I think it’s the second one? I’ve ask that question a lot in the last 10 years. People just shrug it as un-important and we move on with the sale.

Or maybe nobody knows?

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#792
I live in Central Europe and I think our version of tipping makes a lot more sense than what's common in North America.

If we receive exceptional service, we pay a little extra - usually 10% or less.

Staff doesn't expect to be paid from tips, business owners don't expect their staff to be paid from tips, customers don't have a guilt trip because they feel like if they don't tip generously the staff will be underpaid.

U.S. tipping doesn't make any sense from a European point of view.

Just set the prices of things at a level where you can afford to pay your staff from your revenue.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#793

I've just opened a coffee shop in Los Angeles last month, and we don't take tips. We only use self-ordering iPads (I've custom coded an iOS app w/ Stripe Terminal for it), and we don't accept cash either. We've had a few customers baffled by the no-tipping policy, and still insisting that they leave a tip. Some even left cash on the counter or on the table. We had to chase a few of them down to return their money. Al…

Generational divide here. I used to work at Cacao coffeehouse in west LA in the 90s. Only took cash. Also, basically made no money other than tips. I moved to NYC and waited tables where there was no pay whatsoever other than tips. That was around when standard tipping went from 15% to 20%.

Having worked in the service industry, I usually tip 25-30%, per drink or per meal. But here's the relevant point: When I encounter a place that doesn't allow tipping, I still want to tip, and make sure to tip, because it's for the worker. I absolutely loathe the new system that's come into trendy restaurants in Seattle where gratuity is supposedly included. That's a skinflint way for a restaurant to raise their prices and assure you that their workers are being paid, without you as the customer having any say (or direct contact) with the workers. You may put up QR code menus and try to isolate the service staff from the customers, and eliminate tipping, but does that make happier employees? Does it make happier customers?

Tipping serves several purposes. One of them is to get the employees to give customers who tip well better service. Sometimes at the expense of an extra ounce from a whisky bottle, sometimes just with more personal care. The insertion of the management into the situation - trying to say it's good for customers and employees - strikes me as a very false, self-serving line of bullshit. And from everyone I know in the service industry, it seems like it quickly turns into a racket against them as well.

My prediction is that by 2025, places that eliminated tipping will be seen as just as infamous as any of the scammy disruptors of the tech industry in the 2010s; the practice of banning tips will be seen as disreputable, and life will return to its natural equilibrium where customers pay extra for good service.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#794
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't have to outlaw it but we should do something more difficult: make it not the social norm.

Not sure how to do that when business can just decide not to pay fair wages and rely on strangers to supplement employee's income through tipping.

It's not some impossible goal. Most of the world does not have America's crazy tipping culture.

I would say tipping is decreasing in the UK. It's pretty normal not to tip in restaurants now because the pandemic changed payment methods.

Before 10% was the standard (only if you pay after eating though).

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#795
Simply put, there is no defense of tipping that stands up to rigorous scrutiny.

If you think any of the following points are incorrect, please look for a study that reflects this. I'm willing to bet you won't find any.

Studies show that tipping is inherently biased in favor certain races, genders, and phenotypes.

Studies show that tipping is not strongly related to service quality. In fact most people in the USA tip even when they judge the service to be bad.

People in tipping professions are more likely to be living in (or close to) poverty than people in other professions.

Tipping on price makes no sense. A bottle of wine may cost $15 or $1500 but the effort to serve it will be the same.

Expected tipping is a scam to artificially lower menu prices and nothing more.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#796
post #773
post #751

In some countries like afaik Japan, it's customary to NOT tip and actually leaving a tip might be seen as an insult - as if you tried to insinuate they aren't paying their employees enough. I don't know why here in the west it's common practice to actually not pay employees enough and rely entirely on tips. Without those tips, many job offers in the service industry would not be attractive, as they don't pay enough t…

> I don't know why here in the west it's common practice to actually not pay employees enough and rely entirely on tips It's really mostly the case in North America. In most of Europe, tipping is more an exception than a rule. "Normal" service (i.e. being nice to clients and appropriately responding to requests given the standing of the place) is expected to be included in the price. I tip only when I got really outs…

[deleted]

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how one person opened a coffee shop which basically operates like every single coffee shop in the world apart from the US , and you guys need a detailed write up, charts, flow charts, tips for the secret sauce :)

Thanks for sanity. I do understand the specific of the US situation, I’ve leave there since the last decade. In a very touristy city to boot, so a large part of my social network rely on tips. But the lack of awareness from our US friends to understand that they are the exception, not the norm in that particular regard is a bit disconcerting.

Tipping is an evolved system. If you go to most countries outside the US, you are not expected to leave a tip. But if you do leave a tip, here is what you get:

. You are the first person served, every time you walk in, no matter how crowded the bar is.

. You are poured the extra liquor that a bartender is allowed to "spill"

. When you bring your date to the restaurant next time, you are treated very well.

It is true that in America, these things are lost because everyone is expected to tip. But this is the true point of tipping a good waiter or bartender, to show your appreciation and also to be remembered.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#798
post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, that isn't how coffee shops typically operate in the United States, which is what makes it interesting. Operating a coffee shop without tips has special and unique considerations in the United States - chiefly, how to retain talent and employees when conventional wisdom would say it is better paying to get a job at a traditional tip-based coffee shop, which again, are plentiful in the United States. I w…

Former American here...grew up in Ohio but haven't lived in the country for a while (2007). When did coffee shops in the US start asking for tips? It must be a relatively new thing. Never saw tips asked for at coffee shops when visiting until the ipad checkout thing (square?) appeared. Is it a nationwide thing now or just confined to certain regions (coastal metro areas?)?

Yes it started with the upgrade to smart payment terminals, where you insert your card and interact with the screen. It's nationwide now. It got a lot worse during COVID, at which point it became normalized to pay the usual tips even for takeout.

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love how one person opened a coffee shop which basically operates like every single coffee shop in the world apart from the US , and you guys need a detailed write up, charts, flow charts, tips for the secret sauce :)

There are other tipping cultures outside the USA, you know? Tipping is very common in the Balkans and other countries that were influenced by Ottoman culture, for example. While it is not expected, many coffee shops all around Europe also have tipping jars. It's really not common in much of Europe at least for people to actually discourage tipping (though they may seek to refuse what they perceive as exorbitant tips)…

I have lived in Istanbul for a decade now and while many of us do tip, and tipping is rarely expected. The expectation is higher than foreigners, but if you live here, you end up eating at the same places over and over, and that expectation goes away fairly quickly. When I first moved here I realized I was tipping 3-5x what a local would, because I was tipping American standard.

Tipping is mostly expected when there is a lot of service involved in the meal. This means either fine-dining, or Meyhanes where you spend 3-5 hours drinking heavily (Raki/Ouzo) and eating mezes & fish.

I think the tipping culture you're talking about is "Bakshish" which is really more of a bribe than a tip. It doesn't exist much in Turkiye anymore (unless you're an Arab or Syrian refugee, their experience is far different than others). Bakshish is still very prevalent throughout the lower Balkans, Serbia and most Islamic nations I've visited and worked in, except for KSA and UAE (they'll kill you for that shit.)

Re: Is tipping getting out of control? Many consumers say yes

#800
post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should write a longer piece about your coffee shop! and the process behind it. If you do, you should submit it to HN - and if you do that you should email us (hn@ycombinator.com) because we might put it in the second-chance pool ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308 ).

I love how one person opened a coffee shop which basically operates like every single coffee shop in the world apart from the US , and you guys need a detailed write up, charts, flow charts, tips for the secret sauce :)

I think this is a great example of “Don’t you know who I am?”.

dang being super chill by letting it be.

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