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We're going to need a lot of solar panels

caseyhandmer.wordpress.com

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Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had no idea ammonia had such properties, any recommended readings/video?

https://www.oxfordenergy.org/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2020/1... Pure hydrogen has some handling difficulties which might be solved by binding it to carbon (eg in Methane: CH_4), or to nitrogen (eg in Ammonia: NH_3). Ammonia production has as an advantage that nitrogen is available in large quantities in the earth's atmosphere (78%), and ammonia production and usage can therefore _theoretically_ be carbon-neutral (and…

One thing to note: CH_4 burns cleaner than NH_3.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#792
post #734

People both underestimate and overestimate what PV can do. In summer and around noon, here in western Europe, there is so much PV-electricity produced that it is _almost_ enough to fulfill all demands. In winter, the amount is like a drop in the desert. I have built a 30 kWp PV at home 2 years ago - you would think this is quite big, for a private plant. It is not enough. If I want to power a heat pump (with drilled…

Just wondering, isn’t it viable to have Solar arrays in the Sahara/equator regions and have the power transmitted to temperate zones? Is the transmission the issue? Is it politics? Super conductors? I’d love to know why we can’t have a follow the sun global grid…

Politics. Look what's happening to Germany with Russian gas.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#793
post #679

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We also need to avoid a monoculture of energy source. Having all our eggs in one or two baskets is very risky.

What's the risk? It's not like we run out of wind and sunshine anytime soon. Please don't answer that sometimes neither the sun shines nor the wind blows, because we already know that we'll need storage for a carbon free system.

Systemic risk of unknowns, path dependence, etc.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just want to make sure that I'm understanding correctly. You're saying that yes, we can economically make gasoline from the air today, and that the reason we don't is all the renewable production we're ramping up? That everyone just decided not to sell carbon negative cheap gasoline? I guess it's silly to ask why you believe that we can do this, based on no plant ever having been built with tens of billions of ince…

I thought I was clear. We can do anything that atmospheric gasoline or normal gasoline could do cheaper without any gasoline at all. Therefore there is no market for atmospheric gasoline, and the only reason there is a market for normal gasoline, is because the costs are hidden for now. It is not "economic" to live off credit cards just because you don't bother to open the letters telling you how much you owe and you…

> > > The catch is that power-to-gas tech described in the article

> > isn't real

> We can do anything that atmospheric gasoline or normal gasoline could do cheaper without any gasoline at all.

You have now completely exited the original discussion

Please exit argument autopilot

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the 2013 Audi e-gas plant. As was already explained, no, that was in Dresden.

Go back to the start of this thread so that you can verify that you replied to " > The catch is that power-to-gas tech described in the article". e-gas is synthetic methane, this plant went online in 2013. The plant exists and it produces e-gas. Which was what was asked for, this settles the discussion. Additionally I would like to point out that the Dresden plant started in 2014 (not 2013) and it produces e-diesel,…

1. I brought the Dresden plant up. You started arguing about some other plant and tried to pretend that it was the Dresden plant multiple times, even though the one you brought up is on the other side of the country. Now, you're suddenly an expert on the Dresden plant? Stop it.

2. You're attempting to say that "diesel isn't gasoline," when you previously tried to bring up a hydrogen plant. Stop it.

3. No, they also produce regular gasoline. Stop it.

4. The discussion isn't settled; you've just caught up with the thing I said earlier, that you tried to argue with, and now are pretending was your position. Stop it.

5. That plant got shut down, and no longer produces gasoline or diesel, which you didn't know, and which I brought up before you showed up. It now produces fertilizer. However, its webpage is out of date. Since you're arguing out of a search engine, and have no actual knowledge here, you have no ability to come to the correct position. Stop it.

6. There was only ever one, on Earth, ever, and it was never economical *BECAUSE IT DID NOT FUNCTION PROPERLY*, which was the point I was making before you showed up. This is why I say that the technology "isn't real" - for all your search engine pseudo-knowledge, in the real world, nobody has ever been able to make it work, and you're reciting face-saving press releases as if they're a way to make engineering decisions. Stop it.

7. Every single point you've made was wrong, and yet you're still "I would like to point out" ing. Stop it.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#796
post #753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we should discuss whether something is "able to be realized". Cool story. Are you about to say "well what if we can realize the way to realize it" when I point out none of the industrial work is done, none of the process work is done, none of the factories are built, none of the laws are drafted, none of the money is raised, none of the functionaries are settled, and none of the customers are online? If you can't p…

If you think none of the industrial, process, or scientific work is done, you are incapable of decomposing the problem into its constitutent parts and recognizing the existance of most of its constituent parts in other parts of industry. Goodbye.

No post body was provided.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#797

People both underestimate and overestimate what PV can do. In summer and around noon, here in western Europe, there is so much PV-electricity produced that it is _almost_ enough to fulfill all demands. In winter, the amount is like a drop in the desert. I have built a 30 kWp PV at home 2 years ago - you would think this is quite big, for a private plant. It is not enough. If I want to power a heat pump (with drilled…

How viable in terms of performance/(cost+trouble) it is to motorize panels to change only horizontal angle, without full tracking?

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go back to the start of this thread so that you can verify that you replied to " > The catch is that power-to-gas tech described in the article". e-gas is synthetic methane, this plant went online in 2013. The plant exists and it produces e-gas. Which was what was asked for, this settles the discussion. Additionally I would like to point out that the Dresden plant started in 2014 (not 2013) and it produces e-diesel,…

1. I brought the Dresden plant up. You started arguing about some other plant and tried to pretend that it was the Dresden plant multiple times, even though the one you brought up is on the other side of the country. Now, you're suddenly an expert on the Dresden plant? Stop it. 2. You're attempting to say that "diesel isn't gasoline," when you previously tried to bring up a hydrogen plant. Stop it. 3. No, they also p…

You're just embarrassing yourself at this point, which is fine I guess but I can't be bothered anymore.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#799

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't forget that my claim is in the context of somebody else claiming that insulating all housing in Europe would at least take 100 years. Now you are literally redefining the terms I use and then quoting them back to me to argue your new semantics, are you serious? On average, a house is considered to last 100 years in Germany. Call it economic lifetime or whatever else you want. I still stand by that claim,…

> But you won't convince me of that if you try to prove me wrong on semantics > (...) > On average, a house is considered to last 100 years in Germany. First please define what you mean by "last" so that we share the same semantics and then provide a source on this. And if you mean that a building will have been destroyed and rebuild after 100 years on average then I doubt this claim - after making such a strong clai…

> First please define what you mean by "last" so that we share the same semantics and then provide a source on this.

Le me just try to give a definition, "lasting" for me means that you only do maintenance and rework that you would still consider the building year to remain the same after you are finished.

Also the semantics of the term "lasting" were not the issue, the issue is that you do not my sources because you find the term economic lifetime and its definition unacceptable.

> Are you referring to https://www.bauprofessor.de/wirtschaftliche-nutzungsdauer-ge... ?

No I mean my number that approximately half of housing buildings are younger than 1977, so approximately 50 years.

This refers to a survey by the government, see box on bottom: https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-de/themen/klimaschutz/kl...

Someone else in this thread posted a similar source from ourworldindata which has a bit older data but also shows the same trend.

The latter source also has a more detailed breakdown of building years. But even the former source mentions 1977 as its index year which already alleviates the external effects of WW2, people did not just live without houses for 30 years, the lost housing of WW2 was mostly rebuilt in the 50s.

Also, I do think that your claim is not valid. I do understand that the source I gave for economic lifetime, and also the norm I quoted is acting with fictions required for taxes and accounting reasons. The thing is: These fictions are intended to reflect reality. So I don't get why you are so hung up on where these calculation models originate, as they are specifically designed to reflect reality. If they were outlandish, especially when lifetimes on average are longer, these calculation models would absolutely be changed because then the state earns more money due to lower depreciation. If it was the other way around, the calculation model would be challenged in court.

Of course there is no natural law that a house collapses after 100 years. But not only in architecture, in all of engineering, it usually does not make sense to design for an infinite lifetime. If you double the lifetime of anything, it will cost a lot more money. Why would you spend more money today to build a house with better materials, when you don't even live to see the rewards in the form of lower maintenance and renovation costs in a 100 years. By extension this applies for the amount of money you want to spend in maintenance, at least for natural persons. In many situation it makes sense to simply use up the bound capital.

Now this leads to the following:

> It's easy to call someone irrational - but why do you think they don't want this work to be performed. How comes? I doubt that you assume they want the planet to die, so what do you think are their reasons?

As an anecdote for illustration, my grandparents still heat with oil, but the heater soon needs to be replaced. My grandparents are absolutely stubborn in that they want to replace it with a completely new oil-based heater. The literally only reason is: They are old and don't want to try out something new, even if it is functionally exactly the same (like a wood pellet heater). I literally offered them to pay 100% of the new heating system (reversible heat-pump because heat is one of the primary killers of elderly people and I would like my grand-parents to be around a bit longer...) after they bought heating oil on the ATH this spring and they still disagree. There is literally no economic incentive of looking the gift horse in the mouth, and they are unable to offer any other rational explanation.

You may also skimp on maintenance because you think "I am going to die soon anyways". Or people are planning to be living in a large 200 square-meter mansion with 3 stories until they are 90 when in reality they sell the house at 60 and suffer the loss of value when re-selling due to insufficient maintenance.

And some people just want to live in their house and don't give any thought to it until there is an emergency. Then people will have expensive repairs and still won't think twice about changing their behavior.

Some small house owners skimp on maintenance because they bought their houses as an "investment", and they are dependent on rent income to reliably subsidize their life. Even when the income could be higher in the future with some investments and quickly ROI, they won't accept saving up for it and taking on the economic risk.

Even for institutional housing owners it makes sense to tear down units eventually, even if it is just to get rid of the long-term tenants who make larger renovations annoying to impossible.

There is a lot of small house-owners and in general, most people are just really bad at basic accounting. This is also a big reason why the housing market in general is such a pain in the ass.

Re: We're going to need a lot of solar panels

#800

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here in Spain. But in this climate I don't need insulation anyway.. My energy costs are 60 euro a month in winter and 30 in summer. No point even trying to insulate.

Including heating/gas?

Yes included. I don't have gas heating anyway. Just a little plug-in electric radiator.
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