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More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

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Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#791

Post by AussieWog93 »

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

>1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes.

I'm not sure universities can fix this, or want to fix this.

Many of the people opting for university degrees aren't looking to perform work that needs to be done, but seeking a role that makes them feel powerful/smart/elegant/influential etc.

In a market-based economy that rewards meeting the needs/wants of others, I'm honestly surprised that many college grads are paid anything at all.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#793

Post by JPKab »

kube-system wrote: post #719
rPlayer6554 wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The colleges were willing to jack up the price to take advantage of the government giving out loans. They are a major part of the problem as well.

And those that did, used the funds to build new campuses and cutting-edge programs. And students overwhelmingly chose to go to these more expensive and larger schools while smaller and more modest schools struggled to attract students.

I suggest you look at the ways universities ACTUALLY spend money. Yes, many, including my alma mater, spent lavishly on fancy new buildings. No question about that. But the primary growth of expenses at universities has been the huge growth in administrative positions. Administrators want to get paid more, and what better way to do that than to pretend you need more people working UNDER you. There is zero reason why every other industry in the world has reduced their administrative overhead with technology except higher education. And you will never see a bigger group of useless fucks than university administrators. Not unlike the Wall Street "bro" douchebags, they are just talkers with no real skills, inserting themselves into a corrupt system to collect a chunk of the dollars flowing past them.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#794

Post by thehappypm »

paulpauper wrote: post #288
thehappypm wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A $50,000 loan with a high interest rate is not good AT ALL.

By that logic there should be much more outrage about credit card debt, car loan debt.

Spoiler alert, many people think these are predatory too

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#795

Post by pb7 »

betwixthewires wrote: post #780
pb7 wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Trades are overwhelmingly what people do when they don't go for a BA, and often have houses and children far before college graduates. Having a house and children as soon as possible isn't a win. It's what happens when you lack imagination. There's so much more to life than pumping out kids at 21 in your 3/2 in fly over country.

Not for most people there isn't, degree or no degree. Most people lack imagination, live boring lives, and want financial stability and a rewarding family life. Your last statement is very condescending. If your goal is generational wealth , leaving your kids better off than you, return on capital investment and things like that, owning property as early as possible that you can afford to own puts you miles ahead of…

I don’t think it’s condescending at all. It’s a tough pill to swallow at best. I’m not saying those things are wrong to want or that they have no value, only that doing it as soon as possible will have you miss out on a lot of experiences and opportunities that may not be present after you settle down. Therefore, doing it earlier is not a win, as implied in the original comment.

Edit: This is an example of the classic marshmallow test.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#796

Post by brailsafe »

welshwelsh wrote: post #655
silisili wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re 1, at least in the US, it's very dependent on market and path. I have two family members who have been pipefitters for 20 years. Both make more than I do as a software engineer. Another is a doctor, and makes more than they do. But another does boat repair, and makes more than the doctor. If the last decade is any indication, skilled labor - especially those not afraid to own their own business, are set to make a…

I'm sure there are some pipefitters who make a lot of money, but we should go by averages, not outliers. The average for "Plumbers, Pipefitters, and Steamfitters" is $56,330 per year, according to the BLS. For "Software Developers, Quality Assurance Analysts, and Testers" it's $110,140 per year. For "Physicians and Surgeons," it's $208,000 per year. We also need to consider that running your own business is a lot of…

I don't think that for this specific leaf of this thread that averages are what we're talking about actually. The immediate grandparent was referring (naively imo) to the differences between the highest possible reaches of academic financial performance. Otherwise I generally agree, except that my friend went from having zero prospects to being a pipefitter with a good enough salary to support a family of 2 and a house in a very short time. That's what seems most relevant. Who gives a shit about highest theoretical financial output.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#797

Post by betwixthewires »

ksdale wrote: post #541
artful-hacker wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a third real issue is also important, the 'undue hardship' burden necessary to get rid of student loans through bankruptcy needs to be dropped.

Exactly, people get loans for houses and cars, and the banks make damn sure you're a good credit risk. For college loans, it's literally the opposite. Since the loans are so hard to get rid of, the only incentive is to increase the number and size of the loans. The issue is that if lenders looked at creditworthiness for college loans the way they do for mortgages, either the price of college would have to decline pre…

I've been shouting this from the rooftops at anybody who'll listen for several years.

The trick to fix our college system is simply allow student loans to be discharged through bankruptcy, like any other loan. It is a simple incentive shift that changes the whole dynamic of the higher learning industry. All the problems with it that we talk about nowadays will right themselves and everything falls into place with this one weird trick.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#798

Post by pyrale »

indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

> 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs.

I fail to see how this is a problem, and whether it should be fixed. The very idea that people that went through college deserve more is insulting for tradespeople as well as the source of bad incentives to go to college. If anything, the society would probably benefit from colleges focusing on transmitting and advancing knowledge, rather than being paid fast-lanes for people who only give a fuck about the payckeck.

This idea that some works deserve fair pay and some work deserve abuse (the worst being "burger flipper", "student job", etc.) really need to die. If you don't think it deserves fair pay and respect, you don't deserve the service.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#799

Post by nfw2 »

arrosenberg wrote: post #434
_jal wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salary of full-time faculty at American colleges and universities: 1970-71: $81,798 2018-19: $88,703 Mean salary of American college and university presidents in 1983: $160,640 (2018 dollars). Median compensation of private college and university presidents in 2018: $668,000. Median compensation of public college and university presidents in 2019: $495,808 More, and primary source links: https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyb…

Now add the Athletics programs to that and you have a pretty good idea of the issue.

The marquee athletic programs (football and sometimes basketball) generally are cash-positive.

Re: More than 1M fewer students are in college, the lowest numbers in 50 years

#800

Post by someguydave »

pyrale wrote: post #798
indymike wrote: post #314

There are three problems that colleges need to fix. 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. My kids can make more money with a six month apprenticeship than they will with all but a few 4 year degrees. If you can drive a forklift, you can make $45K/yr... which is identical to what an firsty year teacher makes. 2) There are better options than college for many. One of my daughters did a si…

> 1) Skilled trades pay better than most bachelor's degree track jobs. I fail to see how this is a problem, and whether it should be fixed. The very idea that people that went through college deserve more is insulting for tradespeople as well as the source of bad incentives to go to college. If anything, the society would probably benefit from colleges focusing on transmitting and advancing knowledge, rather than bei…

Fully agree, and the implication is that even fewer people should go to college.
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