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America has a drinking problem

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Re: America has a drinking problem

#791

Post by kwhitefoot »

quotemstr wrote: post #741
gambiting wrote: post #734

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Is that why America's per capita GDP is higher than that of the EU? No, but it's exactly why US is far behind EU in healthcare, education, equality, social mobility and a number of other social metrics that matter to you know - normal people on the street, not traders on wall street. GDP doesn't tell the whole story. >>Why the US, not the EU, is the world's center of innovation and the strongest magnet for talent B…

In America, everyone has the same chance already, at least to a close approximation. It's just not logically valid to look at unequal outcomes and conclude that not everyone had the same chance, but that's what half this thread is doing. Whatever the US is doing, it works for producing prosperity and innovation. Whatever the EU is doing doesn't work to produce that. Sure, people there are comfortable, but should comf…

> In America, everyone has the same chance already, at least to a close approximation.

Really? When your mother has to hold down two jobs to pay the rent and put food on the table? Or when your mother doesn't need to work because she inherited millions from her parents? Which mother will have a child who goes on to a good university?

The income share of the poorest ten percent of the population is 1.8% in the US, in Norway it is almost 3.5%. In Norway university education is also free. In which one do you think a child from a low income household would have the best chance of having a better income than their parents?

See https://www.gapminder.org/tools/#$model$markers$bubble$encod...

Re: America has a drinking problem

#792

Post by hutzlibu »

capableweb wrote: post #658
hutzlibu wrote: post #642

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Binge drinking is a problem in germany. You can allmost call it youth culture, most kids go through, before becoming adults. In my late teenage years, it was common and expected on parties to drink, until you have fun, who can drink the most (and puke afterwards), etc. Most people, like myself, had enough of this after some time and matured - but I know too many people, where the booze and beer stayed with them.

> You can allmost call it youth culture, most kids go through, before becoming adults Yes, exactly, this is "kids being kids", we all go through a period of our life where we do stupid shit, related to drugs or other "extreme" things where risks of hurting ourselves is probably higher than the reward, but it's fun so why not? But then we grow up and change in "proper" adults. I think when we talk about "binge drinkin…

First of, I don't think criminalisation helps, but rather complicates the problem further.

And kids doing crazy stuff is one thing ... but another one is to have a culture around it, that endorses it. Because like I said, I know too many who got a regular drinking habit, out of those stupid blackout drinking sessions back then. I very much do believe that germany has a drinking problem, too, to where the roots are the youth. With 14, a buddy of mine won a full bottle of wine at a winefestival, they just handed over to us. Which was the first time I puked from it. Amazing. Technical illegal to give to minors even back then, but common practice in some areas. Because they all celebrate the drinking.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#793

Post by mr-wendel »

Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL wrote: post #636

Whenever I explain the "USA" to (Eastern) Europeans, I always simply state the notion: "diverse country of the extremes". Yes, widespread obesity, but health obsessions also run deep in that country, gym memberships, elite universities with sports programs full of money. How many weird diet fads start basically in the US? Self-help books, alternative gurus, etc. Bad education? Yes, pretty much. But also some of the b…

> please ship the solutions to us, not the movements and the fight

I'm glad this isn't completely tongue in cheek, because I consider this a huge compliment.

I'm extremely critical of the USA, where I do live. The name of the game for the last ~100 years has been to allow wild cultural experimentation so long as cash is always king and big business gets bigger. Both aspects have had worldwide repercussions and especially given US foreign policy everyone is allowed a seat at the table to love+hate the US.

The US is a social experiment and it's had some incredible fruit. It just feels so precarious with such incredible social and economic divisions.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#794

Post by tomhoward »

tilolebo wrote: post #764
capableweb wrote: post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can allmost call it youth culture, most kids go through, before becoming adults Yes, exactly, this is "kids being kids", we all go through a period of our life where we do stupid shit, related to drugs or other "extreme" things where risks of hurting ourselves is probably higher than the reward, but it's fun so why not? But then we grow up and change in "proper" adults. I think when we talk about "binge drinkin…

You're trivializing alcohol and drug consumption in a dangerous way. Binge drinking and other drugs consumption are very serious youth problems leading to lifelong health issues or even death. I'm also pretty sure there is a correlation between youth and adult consumption. Finally, Germany has a higher alcohol consumption per year per person than the USA

They're not saying teenage binge drinking is never problematic – they actually used the words "risks of hurting ourselves is probably higher than the reward".

The point is that youths do risky things; it's a normal part of growing up, and is how you learn about risk and responsibility. Youth binge drinking shouldn't be seen as separate from youths just doing risky things because that's what youths do, else you'll come up with "solutions" that don't address the real issue and fail to solve anything at all.

It's fair enough to say that someone who parties a lot in their early twenties, but doesn't hurt anyone else or themselves too seriously, then grows out of it and lives an upstanding life is not a major problem, whereas someone who continues to drink excessively and destructively when they're older and needing to be responsible is a problem.

And sure, they're somewhat related, but not so much so that they should be considered one and the same, when the underlying causes are usually very different.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#795

Post by solaceb »

watwut wrote: post #711
capableweb wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of the things you've listed sounds like diversity, it sounds like inequality. Why is half the country without proper education while the other ones are in the best research institutions in the world? And what does the people are those institutions spend their time on, if it's not helping the other half reaching the same position as themselves? The social experiment seems to be about how extreme you can really…

> And what does the people are those institutions spend their time on, if it's not helping the other half reaching the same position as themselves? Elite universities are supposed to advance elite science - stuff like math, physics, technology, sociology, history. They also train people for work that requires such training. But, they dont create public education policy nor should they. They are not subject of public…

FWIW, I disagree with this in principle.

I think institutions of higher ed should serve humanity; knowledge is beneficial to all people for the sake of knowledge itself.

I am saddened that many take their intellect and direct their energy solely towards making as much money as possible.

Think of all we could do if our best and brightest weren't so damn distracted with status and money

Re: America has a drinking problem

#796

Post by throwaway316943 »

Mindwipe wrote: post #722
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little more nuanced than that. Crappy "barely survive" paying jobs tend to have high turnover and that's a two way street. You lose your job being janitor at the airport for pissing hot and you might not even lose a day's wage because you could be sweeping floors at the hospital that night if you play your cards right. Jiffy Lube gives you crap jobs for the 3rd straight week and you're rolling your toolbox int…

Because the lag from starting new positions to getting paid is, for people without savings, extremely problematic, and the assumption you can obtain unskilled or low skilled employment rapidly is fairly optimistic in general, ignores potential travel issues, and is pretty city centric and much less plausible in rural areas.

Yeah the lag is tough but going without or being late on payments is part of life when you’re on minimum wage. It sucks, I’ve been there. It’s probably a lot worse if you have a family or live far out of town but that doesn’t mean people don’t quit shitty jobs. I’m not saying people don’t stay in shitty jobs either, they do, it just all depends on the person and the situation but most people I’ve known have walked out of jobs that were unbearable at one point or another.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#797

Post by wavefunction »

Sophistifunk wrote: post #423

People have the cause and effect backwards in my opinion. You know why "binge drinking" isn't a problem in Germany, except for when the Australians turn up for Oktoberfest? It's because you can just buy a beer on the side of the road with your currywurst, and drink it without being hassled. If you act up, you get arrested for acting up. Try openly having a few beers in the park in Australia or the US, you'll be run o…

My US city allows you to consume alcohol in public in a big section of the city center. So people stand around in line for BBQ drinking beer they've got in a cooler. Of course it's also completely legal for women to be topless in public in this city so it's not the American norm by any means.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#798

Post by fokinsean »

baron_harkonnen wrote: post #375
fokinsean wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The end of the drinking activities don't leave me sleepy or craving bad food. I can go home and read a book or get some work done. This is one of my biggest motivations for reducing my drinking during the week. Even having just one or two beers after work, the probability that I read or work on a side project drops close to 0.

> the probability that I read or work on a side project drops close to 0. As someone who has done quite a few major projects on personal time and reads quite a lot as well: I personally have found the attitude that I must always be working on something or "improving myself" far more dangerous than excessive drinking. Certainly there is balance, and I obviously don't advocate giving up all personal projects in order t…

Oh yeah don't get me wrong, I have had my fair share of drunken/high video game time :)

FWIW this is a side project I _want_ to work on, I'm not trying to make money on it, purely a passion project. So I'm not feeling pressured to work on it, I'm just trying to keep the momentum going and I found that drinking will stop that momentum.

I go through waves of video games -> projects -> reading, it's always fluctuating.

Re: America has a drinking problem

#799

Post by squeaky-clean »

hervature wrote: post #252
ragona wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you’re incorrect about a few things. First, tolerance to substances is more physiological than simply learning to hide it. Second, consider one drink an hour ten eight hours. You’d barely be inebriated. It wouldn’t be particularly drastic.

Again, the modern view on alcohol tolerance is that people develop masking abilities. Their BAC and physiological effects remain relatively constant from [1]: > Functional tolerance refers to a phenomenon where a person can ingest significant amounts of alcohol – either at once or slowly over time – and not appear to be intoxicated. A person who has developed a functional tolerance to alcohol may be under the influen…

This link is only for "High-Functioning Alcoholism" which is not the same as the entire spectrum of Alcoholism, your link even mentions this in the first sentence.

> When someone is colloquially termed a “high-functioning alcoholic”, they may be able to carry out daily tasks of living [trimmed] without exhibiting the full range of clinical impairments commonly associated with alcohol use disorders.

The sources listed in the article further breakdown different types of tolerances and their effects. For example source 5,

[5] https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/aa28.htm

> Tolerance means that after continued drinking, consumption of a constant amount of alcohol produces a lesser effect or increasing amounts of alcohol are necessary to produce the same effect (1). Despite this uncomplicated definition, scientists distinguish between several types of tolerance that are produced by different mechanisms.

They then list the details of "Functional Tolerance", "Acute tolerance", "Environment-dependent tolerance", "Learned tolerance", "Environment-independent tolerance", "Metabolic Tolerance".

To imply that Functional Tolerance is synonymous with all forms of alcohol tolerance is incorrect, and it's incorrect to say that's "the" modern view on alcohol tolerance.

Source [6] is a book called "Understanding Why Addicts Are Not All Alike Recognizing the Types and How Their Differences Affect Intervention and Treatment" which should tell you that generalizing all alcoholics into a single type is probably not the most correctly accepted modern view on alcoholism.

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