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Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

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Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#791
post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not wrong :-). In fact, your second line is completely correct. However, Slack has lowered the standards for desktop software by being a really terrible piece of software. Which means that the professional in me wants to see a decent client before I'm happy. What's more worrying is that we are rapidly moving away from an Internet based on open standards and into walled gardens.

> However, Slack has lowered the standards for desktop software by being a really terrible piece of software. You need to explain a claim like that. On the face of it, the Slack UI works beautifully in Browser, Desktop and iOS clients. I'd quite like it to have code syntax highlighting. But really, what are you talking about?

If you think Slack works beautifully you probably do not care about the things I find offensive about it. Like the slowness of switching contexts or the fact that it can only have one conversation on screen at any given time (which in turn makes the slow switching painful).

And this is before we get into the fact that it devours RAM and uses more CPU than is reasonable, making it somewhat pathetic if you think of programming as a craft.

Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#792
post #493

>>> More than 88,000 Paid Customers, including more than 65 companies in the Fortune 100; and >>> We had 575 Paid Customers >$100,000 of ARR as of January 31, 2019, which accounted for approximately 40% of our revenue in fiscal year 2019. If my math is right, 40% of their revenue is concentrated in I also saw that this is a direct listing and not an IPO. Again, I can only see this as a risk, basically because no unde…

Regarding the direct listing, I wouldn't view that as a negative - sounds like they had no need to raise additional capital, but wanted to provide liquidity to their investors and employees.

They've raised a _lot_ privately, and some of those rounds IIRC were described as just "opportunistic" by the founder - i.e., raise money while it's cheap. Also given that they have a VC arm it sounds like they have more capital than they can actually deploy in their core business.

Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#793
post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want that, you can just use IRCCloud, it has all that in a single solution. Just like Slack. IRCCloud can even connect to Slack workspaces. The only advantage Slack has over IRCCloud is marketing. It's relatively ironic that I have to end up praising IRCCloud here, considering I'm contributing to a competing IRC client.

But when you use IRCCloud you don't use the IRC protocol anymore, you use the IRCCloud protocol. Which is the same as using the Slack protocol. Your features aren't available outside IRCCloud. Your account, your data, your history, everything is tied to IRCCloud. You haven't gained anything compared to Slack. You're advocating for the _exact_ same model and you don't realize that the only way to have the same feature…

IRCCloud can connect to normal IRC servers, and normal IRC clients can connect to IRCCloud servers — and you can export your logs and import them elsewhere.

That makes it much closer to the open ideal than Slack is.

Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The one single real advantage of Slack is marketing." Respectfully, NO. Providing a very useful turnkey set of features out of the box that are technically possible but fiddly and hard to use in IRC is in and of itself a huge advantage. This is why they're successful. This is why people use it. This is why people use it who barely know what a command line IS.

If you want that, you can just use IRCCloud, it has all that in a single solution. Just like Slack. IRCCloud can even connect to Slack workspaces. The only advantage Slack has over IRCCloud is marketing. It's relatively ironic that I have to end up praising IRCCloud here, considering I'm contributing to a competing IRC client.

I use both. IRCCloud isn’t close to slack in terms of features or feel.

Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#796

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notifications are easy if the integrations exist.

Building the integrations is easy, if all the integration is is a notification. I've got half a dozen custom slack integrations that i've written for my team, it's no more than a day of work sunk in so far, including the infrastructure in our product to figure out who, what and when to notify. If we need to switch to a different messaging platform, sending that same notification at a different api should be pretty tr…

Building an integration is having someone:

- deal with the target platform's API

- deal with APIs of the many platforms that are being integrated

- maintenance and SLAs

I honestly doubt you can create half a dozen good integrations that require more than just notifications in a channel (for example, PagerDuty notifications and the like).

Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#797
post #54
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and they didn't need to bend or break laws to succeed. I agree. There is no law against half-assed, bloated Electron based desktop software that can bring even recent hardware to its knees.

I've never experienced this very common criticism of slack on here. When I occasionally check, Slack is using around 500mb or RAM. A lot for a chat app? Sure. But it has little to no affect on either my 16gb or 8gb machines.

Just reloaded the Slack tab in Firefox to clear down 1GB of RAM use.

As I do every day.

Every single day.

For the one single channel I join. with no PMs and no threads, no file transfers, no voice or video anything.

Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if it was astonishingly good. But it isn't. It isn't even basically competent, it's terrible. Terrible at scrolling back, terrible at editing previous lines, appalling at completing names properly, bad at search, and completely lacking at customizing when it displays 2MB animated gifs inline.

I would expect a 4Gb machine would mean I never have to check on a text chat client. Apparently not.

Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 80/20 rule is basically the power law which is one of my favorite laws. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_law

It is also one of the most abused rules, often used to justify extremely sloppy "big picture thinking".

Yeah, but 80% of the time, the sloppy thinking is right.

Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#799
post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's really a shame that most customers never learn and they keep accepting closed source/protocols. I don’t care. I just want my tool to solve my problem so I can focus on creating business value at my job. I am sure we could all make our own hammers, but time spent making hammers is time lost from using them.

This isn't really what we're talking about. A better analogy are laptops, phones and tractors - which you are not allowed to repair and only work within a closed ecosystem that you either have to opt into our out of, and where opting out has an extraordinary cost. I use a Mac. I'm part of the problem for having handed my money to an abusive, fraudulent company that is now squeezing all its users for more money for in…

I’m interested in the lower quality part.

My Dad _just_ upgraded from an iPhone 5. Do you think his Xs won’t last as long?

I agree the laptop situation is a bit shitty. I hate the USB-C everything on my work laptop. Everything works fine on my personal computer but as soon as I plug my usb hub into a usb c adaptor everything stutters.

Love their privacy stance though. Best in the business for sure.

Also, what’s abusive? And what’s fraudulent?

Apparently their new monitors are very well priced. And building the same machine you’d get in a MacBookPro or different model ends up being more expensive or similarly priced.

I could be wrong, and I am, certainly, an Apple fan, but I will criticize when I think it’s appropriate and don’t hold views concretely.

Re: Slack Is Going Public at a $16B Valuation

#800
post #799
post #789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really what we're talking about. A better analogy are laptops, phones and tractors - which you are not allowed to repair and only work within a closed ecosystem that you either have to opt into our out of, and where opting out has an extraordinary cost. I use a Mac. I'm part of the problem for having handed my money to an abusive, fraudulent company that is now squeezing all its users for more money for in…

I’m interested in the lower quality part. My Dad _just_ upgraded from an iPhone 5. Do you think his Xs won’t last as long? I agree the laptop situation is a bit shitty. I hate the USB-C everything on my work laptop. Everything works fine on my personal computer but as soon as I plug my usb hub into a usb c adaptor everything stutters. Love their privacy stance though. Best in the business for sure. Also, what’s abusi…

I don't know much about the X since I stopped at the iPhone 7 and I am probably not going to buy any of their exorbitantly priced phones. That being said, in their pursuit of thin phones they ran into design issues with boards flexing so that BGA components will eventually fail. They became aware of the problem and then proceeded to make the same mistake again in later models rarther than fixing the problem. (The flexing problem isn't that they will break after one "bending event", but rather than they fail over time as your phone is subject to mechanical stresses of what is within the range of normal use. Typically because the tiny balls under BGAs will let go)

I'm mostly talking about their laptops and their iMacs. The USB C connectors are of course inconvenient, but I actually like them. Again, the problem is that in their pursuit of thinness they ended up designing keys that are very sensitive to dust (and not very nice to use). In subsequent models they kept at it, so the quality of keyboards doesn't seem to be a priority. Some laptops have a tendency to develop display problems due to bad design. For instance blowing hot air on parts that can't take hot air or laying out connectors so that they will fail more easily.

Now these are design flaws, which brings us to the "abusive and fraudulent" part. If you want to get these things fixed under warranty you _may_ be okay. Except the process appears to be entirely decided by chance. For instance they have put moisture indicators inside the macbooks that not only react to liquid damage, but which turn from white to red (indicating moisture) over time depending on the humidity in the air where you use it. (Most people don't know how these things work, so they'll accept it). So they'll accuse you of having spilled liquid in your laptop and refuse to fix it even when this is not the case. Accusing their customers of lying isn't a very good way to behave.

In many cases they will also claim that your laptop is in need to expensive component replacements. Either because they claim that the component cannot be repaired or when their service technicians fail to correctly diagnose the equipment. The repair costs quoted are supposed to make you buy a new computer rather than fix the one you have.

On top of that they have the gall to claim that independent repair shops are somehow less qualified than Apple. Which naturally rings true in the ears of most people; they designed it so they should be the best to fix it, right? However, this doesn't seem to be generally true. Especially since Apple and their authorized resellers appear to have very limited diagnostic and repair capability and the qualifications vary.

When you do send in an Apple device, you have to be aware of the fact that it isn't Apple that repairs your equipment - it is a subcontractor. And they are not always the best.

Wich brings us to the bullying. Apple do their best to kill the independent repair market any way they can. Often by filing lawsuits against repair shops and then putting them out of business. When confronted with this they us their go-to excuses. Like protecting the consumer from unqualified repair shops.

They do this by denying independent repair shops access to the supply line - meaning they work hard to make it difficult to obtain spare parts and components. Compare this to, for instance, Samsung, which sell parts online to make it easy for repair shops to get the needed parts. In order to get parts for Apple products there is an entire market for broken laptops that are bought and sold to repair shops in order to provide donor boards for components.

Of course, then there is the fact that they seem to deliberately make things harder to repair or upgrade. For instance batteries that are glued in unnecessarily, increasing the chance of destruction if you try to replace them. Or soldering in components that the user may want to upgrade later (like RAM and SSDs). For instance on my mac mini the SSD is soldered in, but fortunately the RAM is socketed.

I became aware of the systematic nature of this about a year ago when starting to watch videos to learn how to solder surface mount components (I do a bit of electronics). I stumbled over people who repaired Macs for a living. I didn't come there for the rants, but when starting to research the issue a bit and speaking to a couple of people who also do this for a living, it became obvious to me how terribly Apple are behaving.

Two things struck me 1) diagnosing and fixing macs isn't rocket science. People are able to even as Apple tries to starve them for information. 2) most people don't know how electronics are fixed so of course Apple will get away with claiming they are protecting their users by not allowing independent repair shops to repair their stuff. Diagnosing and replacing broken components and cleaning up fouled circuit boards is not all that hard. Sure, you need the equipment, ability to read schematics and some ability to diagnose electronics, but there are people who do that for a living.

And you really do want to be able to pick your computer repair people just like you pick repair shops for your car. I use a mechanic I know and trust for my car - a guy who walks me through everything he does with my car and even shows me what he has done, and what he thinks should be done. I never use the brand workshop simply because those guys only follow procedures (which aren't always correct), I have no idea who works on my car and I have no insight into what is actually done or if the car is actually fixed or serviced correctly. If anything, my computer is even more important to me so of course I don't want some semi-qualified, random clown subcontractor of Apple, far away, to work on my computers.

The upshot of all this is that I feel very uncomfortable as a Mac user. Whenever I buy a Mac I am taking a huge risk. If something breaks I may not be able to fix it and the only option available to me might be to buy an entirely new machine. Even when the fault is due to a cheap component that takes 10-15 minutes to replace. Simply because Apple actively work to withhold spare parts from the market.

This is even more true if you buy one of their expensive models. The new Mac Pro may look nice, both in terms of specs, price and looks, but if it breaks, you have no way of knowing if you are going to lose your investment. Your machine may become completely worthless as a result of a trivial, cheap component breaking.

If I trusted Apple as a hardware vendor I would probably have upgraded my laptop to a newer model and I would probably have bought an iMac Pro rather than a Mac mini. But since I can't trust them I'm looking at starting to move away from Apple. My next laptop probably isn't going to be an Apple and my next desktop computer is probably not going to be an Apple since I need more power with less risk.

I'm really not fond of the idea of running Linux and having to depend on vmware to run Windows for a lot of the desktop stuff, but this may be the only viable route if Apple doesn't get their act together.

Enough text. Here are some videos.

Some reporting on Apple's fraudulent practices: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2_SZ4tfLns

Example of repair: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDjwYf_GzK0

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