We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#791

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 10:26 AM UTC

jldugger wrote: post #366

b212 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose ma…

> I live in Eastern Europe Well, a number of people use Eastern Europe location as a filter for 'cheap labor'. And SV startups tend to have crap wages to begin with, but offer equity to compensate. I could imagine a few startups seeking to crimp further. > Meanwhile no developer in my country even responds to offers if the salary is not given ... before the interview Posting salaries is rare in the US. It's becoming…

>Well, a number of people use Eastern Europe location as a filter for 'cheap labor'.

It's particularly hilarious when you realise that some eastern Europe places outsource to the US Midwest because it's cheaper....

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#792

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 10:30 AM UTC

meddlepal wrote: post #188

b212 wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose ma…

I don't know about the EU business culture, but in the US you are expected to negotiate. You really have to fight for every penny you want...

>don't know about the EU business culture

It varies much more than the American one does.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#793

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 10:36 AM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #652

bsanr2 wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that it IS common to lie, or else to redirect the conversation from what was made in the last position to what is desired for the new position. Why should it matter? You're being hired to fill a position that's worth x amount of compensation; the primary reason to ask for prior compensation seems to be to to get a "deal" (i.e., rob an employee of potential earnings).

There's no such thing as "worth X amount of compensation". The way it's supposed to work is that you and your employer (who represents the capital) generate a return from your joint venture. But the actual return is hard to predict. And there is no fair and obvious way to divvy up the return. So it comes down to negotiation power. There also may not be any condition where you and the capital agree to join. The capita…

>And there is no fair and obvious way to divvy up the return

How about x% of average revenue per employee. Usally around 100k to 300k. So ARPE minus expenses = average salary.

Probably around 60k to 70k for most companies.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#794

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 11:16 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #552

chrisweekly wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC it's becoming illegal to ask about current salary. IMHO it should be irrelevant. The question is, what is the market rate for someone w/ your skills and experience?

> illegal The inevitable result of that is the people making bank will be sure to tell you, and ones making low salaries will not. The employer will therefore still know if you're making above or below the usual salary. Businesses don't like risk (just like employees don't) and hiring a new person poses a lot of risk. It's expensive, and the employee may not work out at all. The more risk there is in hiring someone,…

>The employer will therefore still know if you're making above or below the usual salary.

Then again if it's illegal to find out, how will they check if your lying or not?

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#795

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 11:25 AM UTC

retiredcoder wrote: post #723

meddlepal wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about the EU business culture, but in the US you are expected to negotiate. You really have to fight for every penny you want...

My anedata for EU is that varies a lot between States. In Germany, I had salary negotiation closer to what I was used to in the US (e.g.: two competing offers, etc). In Denmark, very little room to maneuver. I had no luck negotiating salaries in big corps here (Final comp in DK mostly from salary). Every attempt I made to initiate a salary discussion/negotiation seemed to make the hiring managers uncomfortable as in…

>In Denmark, very little room to maneuve

About the only thing I could see you getting in Denmark is a cost of living raise or maybe something to the whole department or team.

Some EU countries have a much stronger emphasis on sectoral bargaining. (Often there's a formal mechanism for everyone to work together to negotiate more pay)

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#796

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 12:10 PM UTC

nickbarnwell wrote: post #446

mooreds wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you in the Bay area or Seattle? That's higher rates than what I have seen for new college hires (I have seen in the 40-60k range).

Even at the top end of that range it's less than what a competitive internships annualised compensation would be. Are you really able to hire people at those rates?

>Are you really able to hire people at those rates?

Not the poster,although I've found a lot of people will take 50% pay for fully remote jobs.

I was suprised just how valuable fully remote is to so many people.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#797

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 12:22 PM UTC

x0x0 wrote: post #515

areyouseriousxx wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it strange, as software developers, that we discuss the effects on automation all the time, but no one seems to understand that automation has made searching for new employees incredibly inexpensive and efficient compared to the past. So in technical roles there are a lot of companies that are always hiring. Recruiters work for free until they find you someone and placing job listings online is so inexpensive…

Searching for new employees is incredibly inexpensive == I now know you don't do any interviewing or hiring. Eg when we post a senior eng job on eg glassdoor, stackoverflow, or linkedin, we are deluged with resumes. Just the ad easily costs $250. Then we get applications who ignore that we don't sponsor visas, clearly don't have the skills required (6 year SAP programmer who wants to be a senior fullstack eng? No tha…

>6 year SAP programmer who wants to be a senior fullstack eng? No thanks.

Which part of senior full stack are they missing? Front end, back end , API?

https://cloudplatform.sap.com/capabilities/technical-asset-i...

>1.5 years experience does not make you a senior SE who can be trusted to design and land large features with minimal oversight.

Yes and 25 years experience doesn't make them one either, especially if it is the same 25 years.

You could find a 2.5 jr with the skills required.

I mean if they started their own start up they could be designing and landing features with no oversight within 18 months.

>The first problem is an eng manager reviews all those resumes.

Yes it's better to have actually engineers do the initial review. They understand the job, will see through the BS and scale better. The more people you hire, the more resumes you can review.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#798

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 12:31 PM UTC

dangero wrote: post #313

burtonator wrote: post #5

I had a recruiter call me a year ago with what sounded like a really amazing offer. Working for a well funded startup on a problem in which I happen to be a domain expert. They're aren't many expects in my field with my background and skill set and they said the right things to get me to interview (compensation won't be a concern). Anyway... Went in for 4-5 interviews. Took me about 10 hours in total to interview wit…

I want to give a slightly different perspective on this as a cofounder of a startup. First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that. As far as salary goes, I absolutely cannot afford to compete and hire at market rate prices so I rely on: -People who are motivated by other factors than money (everyone at our company took a pay cut to join). We have schedule f…

>I absolutely cannot afford to compete and hire at market rate prices

You could if you were willing to take rawer unproven talent.

You chose another option and that worked for you and that's great. You could have perhaps hired a student at market rate.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#799

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 1:47 PM UTC

dangero wrote: post #631

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you reconcile this statement: First of all it sounds like there was some really dishonest communication and there is no excuse for that. With this one: People who are unaware of their market value

As an employer it is not my job to assess and pay an employee their market value. I’m not a career counselor. I have positions I need to fill and those have salaries associated with them. Someone who is overqualified might accept a role when I think they could do better, but that’s me projecting a vision onto them. The employee has mobility to reject my offer, or leave and seek a better job. Also people are complex I…

>As an employer it is not my job to assess and pay an employee their market value

Then how do you do competition market research?

Are you okay with it if it turns out that the offer you make is either 3x or 1/3 The market rate?

>The employee has mobility to reject my offer, or leave and seek a better job.

As long as you never whine about a 'talent shortage' when they reject the offer or leave, that's fine.

You made the offer, they decline or leave because they can get better elsewhere.

You look at that information and decide if you want to raise wages or not. Then put out whatever adverts you wish.

Simple and easy. No need for press,PR,H1B, lobbyists and the like.

If everyone was running like that, these kind of articles wouldn't exist.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#800

Post by kraigie » Tue, Apr 23, 2019, 2:14 PM UTC

bayesian_horse wrote: post #722

TuringNYC wrote: post #681

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is totally fine, but it isn't a "shortage". It is poor product market fit, poor pricing, or just a bad business. If a business cannot support input costs, the business is just a bad business. If I start a business that sells Ferraris for 20k, then complain how I cant buy them cheap enough wholesale, there isn't a shortage.

This example certainly constitutes a "shortage", especially from the point of the employer. He has a demand which he can't fulfill. Due to not fulfilling it, he has problems investing his capital as productively as possible. The idea that job applicants get offered wages which they perceive as too low does not mean that there is not a shortage of similar talent on the market, even at reasonable wages, if there even i…

>This example certainly constitutes a "shortage", especially from the point of the employer. He has a demand which he can't fulfill.

There are certainly localised shortages (hence the popularity of remote work)

>they can only hire new people if they embark on a potentially ruinous wage

Or cut profits or lower CEO wages to fund it, or move the company to a lower cost of living area.

If your a software company your biggest expenses are probably staff and offices and well cheaper areas also have excellent connections to cloud services.

You can pay half as much in salary in 1/4 area and everyone is better off.